PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Liaoning's island can be made further smaller if she was nuclear powered like the Enterprise was.

Ummmm not necessarily -- remember USN had conventionally powered carrier classes like the Forrestal and Kitty Hawk classes prior to Enterprise and Nimitz, and Forrestal and Kitty Hawk classes also had similarly small islands, more or less.

I would expect 001A to 002 to gradually optimize their island geometry and size as well, despite not being nuclear powered.

USS Kitty Hawk, with smoke trail visible from its island
R85PDiA.jpg



USS forrestal, one can see the smoke stack quite clearly
AuaF4xH.jpg
 

Richard Santos

Captain
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Comparing both models, the Enterprise's island is by no means "small". It's only "small" relative to the overall size of the carrier. While Liaoning's island is indeed longer, it's also much narrower. Enterprise's structure seems taller as well.

Enterprise' island is of a unique design, dictated by the desire to fit 4 of the huge, heavy and ultimately unsuccessful vacuum tube electronics passively steered phased array radar panels. That's why it's shaped like a cube. These billboard radar antennas were removed from the superstructure sides during the 1980 refit, but the basic cube shape of the superstructure remained.

Liaoning/Kuznetsov's island is shaped by the fact that Soviet Union wanted not a pure carrier but a missile cruiser / carrier hybrid, with both offensive and defensive missile firepower, plus the shipboard anti-submarine sensors and electronic support capabilities on par with the Kirov class battlecruiser. So it had to carry the vast array of top hamper typical of any Soviet cruiser.

In addition, the Kuznetsov was also designed to carry the Skyward, which was intended to be the Soviet equivalent to the Aegis system, but whose size and weight more resembled the size and weight to those which Enterprise carried 25 years before the Kuznetsov.

In short, It needed an island as big as those of the Enterprise to carry a radar system as enormous, plus it needs all the room required to accommodate almost as much top hamper as a Kirov class battlecruiser on top of that. That's why it's island is so enormous.

As it turns out, the massive Soviet Sky guard phased array radar system, intended to rival the Aegis system, failed as miserably as the the distant Aegis ancester which the Enterprise was built with 25 years before.

The Chinese actively steered phase array panels currently on the Liaoning is very small compared to the soviet system whose space they occupy. Also, the Chinese didn't try to make the ship do double duty as a missile cruiser. That's the Liaoning's Soviet bequeathed superstructure looks so ridiculously oversized on the Chinese carrier.

I have no doubt the island on the first indigenous Chinese carrier will owe almost nothing to the island on the Liaoning. The chinese requirement is totally different. The soviet design requirement that produced such a huge island is totally inapplicable to Chinese design intentions. Besides, look at the current generation of Chinese surface combatants. They all have relatively low slung and compact superstructures. Chinese designers are not into big top heavy superstructures the way Soviet designers had been. So I bet when the first indigenous Chinese carrier is completed, its island would be tiny next to Liaoning, and would look much more like the islands on an American carrier.
 

lcloo

Captain
A large part of Liaoning's island is taken up by the complex air inlet and waste gas/steam exhaust system which control the inlet air temperature, and the air filter system. These are big and bulky as seen on Liaoning.

And if the power plant is a combined cycle (gas turbine + steam turbine), you will need separate exhaust outlet pipes for gas and steam, in the same housing structure, which made the housing structure even bigger, relative to gas turbine only system.

To shrink the air inlet/exhaust housing, one way is to partially locate the inlet/outlet system below deck, but than your valuable below deck space
will be much reduced, so it may not be an acceptable solution.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Ummmm not necessarily -- remember USN had conventionally powered carrier classes like the Forrestal and Kitty Hawk classes prior to Enterprise and Nimitz, and Forrestal and Kitty Hawk classes also had similarly small islands, more or less.

I would expect 001A to 002 to gradually optimize their island geometry and size as well, despite not being nuclear powered.

..and when I served aboard USS John F Kennedy the island was the smallest of any USN CV in commission at that time. '72 &'73.

TNUlFVn.jpg


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BEIJING (AP) — China hosted a visit this week to its sole aircraft carrier by senior U.S. Navy officers amid tensions over reported plans by Washington to challenge Beijing's territorial claims in the South China Sea.
The delegation of 27 commanders and captains boarded the Liaoning on Monday and held discussions on "exercise management, personnel training, medical protection and strategies in carrier development," the Chinese navy said on its official microblog.

That was followed Tuesday morning by a visit to the navy's submarine academy, where further dialogues were held, the navy said.

The visits appear to reflect the growing momentum of military exchanges between the sides, despite occasional flare-ups in tensions and Washington's complaints over what it calls the Chinese military's lack of transparency.

The visits follow reports that the U.S. Navy plans to sail a warship inside the 12-nautical-mile (21-kilometer) territorial limit of one of China's newly constructed islands formed by piling sand atop existing reefs and atolls. That would demonstrate Washington's refusal to recognize China's claims in the South China Sea, especially artificial islands that the U.S. insists cannot be classified as sovereign territory.

China claims sovereignty over almost all of the South China Sea and its maritime features, while five other governments also claim it in part or in whole. China's growing assertiveness and a renewed U.S. focus on Asian military affairs are seen as fueling a rise in tensions in the region, which is home to key shipping lanes, rich fishing grounds and a potential wealth of mineral resources.

Both China and the U.S. appeared to want to keep this week's visits low-key, with China's official Global Times newspaper not reporting on them until Wednesday. The U.S. Navy's official website made no mention of them.

The visits had been long planned and were in reciprocation for a weeklong visit by 29 Chinese naval officers to the U.S. in February, the first time China had sent a delegation of such size, reported the Global Times, which is published by the ruling Communist Party's flagship People's Daily newspaper.

The Global Times quoted the head of the Chinese delegation, Commander Zhang Junshe, as saying exchanges of front-line officers was vital to "reducing miscalculations and misjudgments and boosting mutual understanding and trust."

The Liaoning was commissioned three years ago after China spent more than a decade refurbishing an incomplete hull purchased from Ukraine, installing all new propulsion systems, weaponry and other key equipment. Officially categorized as a test platform, it has yet to receive its full air complement.

Then-U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was the first foreign visitor to the Liaoning, touring the ship last year with a small delegation at its home port in the northern city of Qingdao.

China is believed to have recently begun work on its first entirely home-built carrier, and is steadily adding cutting edge frigates, destroyers and nuclear submarines to its fleet.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
...these pictures of the US Navy "commanders"(?) delegation visiting CV-16 yesterday (10/19) appeared on the chinese forum...

cv16usnavy-01.jpg
We now know who these offercers were and why they were there.

The PLAN said:
The delegation of 27 commanders and captains boarded the Liaoning on Monday and held discussions on "exercise management, personnel training, medical protection and strategies in carrier development," the Chinese navy said

Those US Naval personnel were officers who had experience in the areas of, ""exercise management, personnel training, medical protection and strategies in carrier development," and could discuss them with their Chinese hosts.

See the article by ABC News:

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As I said, before, this is good, positive news and such visits are arranged at the highest levels.
 

Intrepid

Major

Jeff Head

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The island of Enterprise is a very special design, like the deckhouse of Long Beach (due to the first deployed
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system). See this
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. 50 years of experience later, it looks like
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.
The initial Enterprise and Long Beach aperture radars were far ahead of their time...and the technology of the time ended up just not being able to support it.

So, the Enterprise went from this in the mid 1960s:

CVN65-Island-01.jpg

to this in the late 1970s until 2012 when she was decommissioned.:

CVN65-Island-02.jpg

You can see the aperture radars in the 1st pic, and the man radar on top of the deck house in the second.

And the Long Beach (which did not serve nearly as long as the Enterprise) went from this in the mid 1960s:

CV9-Bridge-01.jpg

to this in the early 1970s through 1995 when she was decommissioned:

CV9-Bridge-02.jpg

Again, you can see the aperture radars on the sides of the deck house in the first, replaced by the radar above the deck house, on the mast, in the second.

The APARs used by the Chinese on the Liaoning are working just fine by all accounts...better than the Russian system...which itself did not work that well on the Kuznetsov.

Here is the Liaoning Island with its APARs.

12914443973_078ae56da0_c.jpg

Here is the Kusnestov Island with its APARs.

Kuznetsov-Island-01.jpg
 
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