PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Blitzo · Jan 27, 2014

Ah, I see, thanks for that.

I just realized the speech was done in 2011 as well, I thought it was recent lol.

Anyway, I suppose this at least further confirms the scale of precursor R&D for IEPS.

I suppose the question is whether the 2008 subscale prototype and the full scale demonstrator refers to an IEPS set up or EMALS.

--

The bit about 054B and amur is also indicative.
054B isn't a fully accepted designation yet, even if we do expect the next gen frigate to have IEPS. And I'm also pretty sure amur is even more unsubstantiated and in line with rumours of china wanting su-35 or tu-22m3s.

latenlazy · Jan 27, 2014

Bltizo said:
Ah, I see, thanks for that.

I just realized the speech was done in 2011 as well, I thought it was recent lol.

Anyway, I suppose this at least further confirms the scale of precursor R&D for IEPS.

I suppose the question is whether the 2008 subscale prototype and the full scale demonstrator refers to an IEPS set up or EMALS.

Or a railgun? I was super careful about following the structure of the letter when reading it because I thought at first that the specific project was just another reference to IEPS, but I'm pretty certain that it wasn't. He finishes talking about the progress made with IEPS a few paragraphs before he refers to this mystery project, so I concluded that mystery project wasn't directly related to IEPS. Furthermore, the Phoenix News article also discusses electromagnetic launch/electromagnetic induction technologies in relation to Mr. Ma (including a patent), but that isn't mentioned at all in the letter, so I would presume said mystery project is related to that and not IEPS.

Blitzo · Jan 27, 2014

latenlazy said:
Or a railgun? I was super careful about following the structure of the letter when reading it because I thought at first that the specific project was just another reference to IEPS, but I'm pretty certain that it wasn't. He finishes talking about the progress made with IEPS a few paragraphs before he refers to this mystery project, so I concluded that mystery project wasn't directly related to IEPS. Furthermore, the Phoenix News article also discusses electromagnetic launch/electromagnetic induction technologies in relation to Mr. Ma (including a patent), but that isn't mentioned at all in the letter, so I would presume said mystery project is related to that and not IEPS.

Hmm indeed. I suppose both EMALS and railgun could be feasible for a small scale prototype and a full scale demonstrator to have been built in the time scale mentioned.

Anyway what do you make of by78's academic article posted in 1800?

It has Mr Ma's name on it as second author, but my chinese reading isn't what it should be, and the article it might be a review essay for all I know and not reveal anything about the domestic EMALS project at all.

latenlazy · Jan 27, 2014

Bltizo said:
Hmm indeed. I suppose both EMALS and railgun could be feasible for a small scale prototype and a full scale demonstrator to have been built in the time scale mentioned.

Anyway what do you make of by78's academic article posted in 1800?

It has Mr Ma's name on it as second author, but my chinese reading isn't what it should be, and the article it might be a review essay for all I know and not reveal anything about the domestic EMALS project at all.

Huh, I didn't notice the authorship for those articles. Maybe that does lend to the idea that Ma Weiming was working on EMALS and not some other electromagnetic induction technology.

by78 · Jan 27, 2014

latenlazy said:
Huh, I didn't notice the authorship for those articles. Maybe that does lend to Ma Weiming working on EMALS and not some other electromagnetic induction technology.

All of this is confusing, but if we think of Mr. Ma as an applied physicist, then things would clear up a bit.

The technology behind IEP, EMALS and Railgun are similar, since all three rely on electromagnetism. It's plausible that Mr. Ma made a breakthrough in a key piece of technology that underpinned all three, thus propelling all of them forward. This is why he's being credited in multiple places, including in that academic paper on EMALS.

latenlazy · Jan 27, 2014

by78 said:
All of this is confusing rather, but if we think of Mr. Ma as an applied physicist, then all of this would make more sense.

The technology behind IEP, EMALS and Railgun are fundamentally similar, since all three rely on electromagnetism.

It's plausible that Mr. Ma made a fundamental breakthrough in an area that underpinned IEP, EMALS, and Railgun, thus propelling all three forward. This is why he's being credited all over the place, including in that academic paper on EMALS.

Oh I definitely agree about all those technologies being related. The question is which one of these was the project he was working on that broke ground in 2008. It could be a project that is more fundamental to the operation of all three sorts of technologies as you suggested, but technically IEP is already an underpinning technology for the use of both EMALS and Railguns and the letter already talks profusely about Mr. Ma's work in advancing China's electrical generation and transfer systems overall, so it seems unusual that he would discuss all that out in the open and then be discrete about a specific project item that would be an extension of what he talked about openly earlier. (There's no suggestion that there's a direct connection between that project and his earlier work in the letter).

Furthermore, the content of the paragraph on the mystery project specifically implies not some fundamental system but some specific item or equipment, and we need to keep in mind the Phoenix News article's specific mention of 电磁发射. Personally, after noting Mr. Ma's co-authorship of that EMALS academic paper, I suspect it was actually was EMALS. Maybe once the development of an EMALS is completed we'll hear the name Ma Weiming associated with railguns. That is unless of course you can already pull up academic papers where Mr. Ma's name comes up in association with railguns. That would effectively kill the academic paper as corroborating evidence that the project mentioned in his letter was more likely than not an EMALS.

by78 · Jan 27, 2014

latenlazy said:
Oh I definitely agree about all those technologies being related. The question is which one of these was the project he was working on that broke ground in 2008. It could be a project that is more fundamental to the operation of all three sorts of technologies as you suggested, but technically IEP is already an underpinning technology for the use of both EMALS and Railguns and the letter already talks profusely about Mr. Ma's work in advancing China's electrical generation and transfer systems overall, so it seems unusual that he would discuss all that out in the open and then be discrete about a specific project item that would be an extension of what he talked about openly earlier. (There's no suggestion that there's a direct connection between that project and his earlier work in the letter).

Furthermore, the content of the paragraph on the mystery project specifically implies not some fundamental system but some specific item or equipment, and we need to keep in mind the Phoenix News article's specific mention of 电磁发射. Personally, after noting Mr. Ma's co-authorship of that EMALS academic paper, I suspect it was actually was EMALS. Maybe once the development of an EMALS is completed we'll hear the name Ma Weiming associated with railguns. That is unless of course you can already pull up academic papers where Mr. Ma's name comes up in association with railguns. That would effectively kill the academic paper as corroborating evidence that the project mentioned in his letter was more likely than not an EMALS.

Is it possible that Phoenix made a mistake in terminology, since the Chinese terms for EMALS and Railgun look so similar?

I found this article, from 2011, which was repeated by many other websites as well:

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中国潜艇的"心脏"-发动机总设计师马伟明，1996年清华大学电机系毕业，中国工程院院士、海军少将。他领导研制成功的项目使我国常规潜艇、核潜艇成功做到全电推进（做到潜艇静音），中央军委为他特别记一等功。现主持航母舰载机电磁弹射器项目。

It clearly states Mr. Ma, having successfully lead research for electric propulsion for submarines, is now(现) heading (主持) the Carrier EMALS (航母舰载机电磁弹射器) program.

Of course, Mr. Ma could be contributing to the railgun project (assuming it exists), but it's also plausible the author of the Phoenix article confused '电磁发射' with '电磁弹射'.

In any event, EMALS definitely has a higher priority over railgun; this coupled with the fact that Mr. Ma is heading (主持) the EMALS program leads me to believe that the 'specific project item' he mentioned was EMALS.

It's all balance of probabilities and educated guesses for me at this point.

Thoughts?

latenlazy · Jan 27, 2014

by78 said:
Is it possible that Phoenix made a mistake in terminology, since the Chinese terms for EMALS and Railgun look so similar?

I found this article, from 2011, which was repeated on many other websites as well:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

中国潜艇的"心脏"-发动机总设计师马伟明，1996年清华大学电机系毕业，中国工程院院士、海军少将。他领导研制成功的项目使我国常规潜艇、核潜艇成功做到全电推进（做到潜艇静音），中央军委为他特别记一等功。现主持航母舰载机电磁弹射器项目。

It clearly states Mr. Ma, in addition to making electric propulsion breakthroughs for conventional and nuclear submarines, is ALSO heading (现主持) the Carrier EMALS (航母舰载机电磁弹射器) program.

Now, it's possible that Mr. Ma is also contributing to the railgun project (assuming it exists), but it's equally plausible the author of the Phoenix article confused '电磁发射' with '电磁弹射'.

In any event, EMALS definitely has a higher priority over railgun; this coupled with the fact that Mr. Ma was the heading (主持) the EMALS program leads me to believe that the 'specific project item' he mentioned was in fact EMALS.

I'm considering the balance of probabilities and making educated guesses at this point.

Thoughts?

Well, don't take my suggestion that he might've been involved with railguns instead too seriously. I was simply pointing out that 电磁发射 is a more generic term than 电磁弹射. Both railguns and EMALS would fit into 电磁发射, but 弹射 specifically means catapult. It's possible that Phoenix put up the wrong term, or went with the more generic term, when in fact Mr Ma is specifically working on the catapult. I would even say the corroborating evidence suggests that he was because of that academic paper. I think that specific detail that I missed which Blitzo pointed out has sold me on that, which would mean that they built their first full scale prototype as early as 2008. Pretty solid information at this point, I think.

Whether Mr. Ma will end up working on a railgun afterwards...who knows. I only threw that possibility in there to tie it up with how the technologies are closely related.

by78 · Jan 27, 2014

latenlazy said:
Well, don't take my suggestion that he might've been involved with railguns instead too seriously. I was simply pointing out that 电磁发射 is a more generic term than 电磁弹射. Both railguns and EMALS would fit into 电磁发射, but 弹射 specifically means catapult. It's possible that Phoenix put up the wrong term, or went with the more generic term, when in fact Mr Ma is specifically working on the catapult. I would even say the corroborating evidence suggests that he was because of that academic paper. I think that specific detail that I missed which Blitzo pointed out has sold me on that, which would mean that they built their first full scale prototype as early as 2008. Pretty solid information at this point, I think.

Whether Mr. Ma will end up working on a railgun afterwards...who knows. I only threw that possibility in there to tie it up with how the technologies are closely related.

Agree completely.

So EMALS looks promising, assuming all information at hand is accurate. Interesting times ahead.

Jeff Head · Jan 27, 2014

MwRYum said:
They said it's slated for the upcoming Lunar New Year...

To infinity...and beyond!

PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

latenlazy

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

latenlazy

Brigadier

by78

General

latenlazy

Brigadier

by78

General

latenlazy

Brigadier

by78

General

Jeff Head

General