PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Well, the two old Kievs were not refit, and will never be refit. They're amusement parks...and they served their purpose for the PLAN before that happened in terms of research and study.

The PLAN made evident by their actions what their intent was. The bought and began refitting the Varayg, and now have the Liaoning.

The bought and studied the Kievs, and then allowed them to become amusement parks.

Now the PLAN will build its own indigenous carriers.

The Indians did buy and refit the Baku/Gorshkov. But it was a transitional carrier and as Gollivean pointed out those eight years ago...it had been designed so it could be more easily refit. And that was why, when the Indians got into a lurch with their own late program and the need for another carrier before theirs would be finished, they went with the Gorshkov...and now they have the Vikramaditya and an air wing of Mig-29Ks.

That did not and will not happen to the Kiev or the Minsk.

But, new carriers will be built for the PLAN, and the PLAN does have the very capable Liaoning. Hopefully we can move back to discussing those events.

One thing I know..back then Gollevainen, as a Super Moderator, indicated that the talk about the conversion of the Kiev and Minsk for PLAN service was counter productive and not in the best interest of the forum to continue. He felt it shamed the forum to even consider it, and in fact ordered it to stop. And I quote from November 27, 2006:

Gollevainen said:

NO NO NO and NO!!! I've always kept my personal views over matters in one side and the moderating the forum in other but in this situation I have to break my policy. The nonsense discussion of Kievs and Minsk in Chinese military service ends now. To allow it to continue brings only shame to our forum as we try to set up constructive, meaningless and reasonable discussion. Modernizing Kievs does not fall to that category. So if you wish to dream about these fantasies, continue it in the member's club room, but not in this thread.

It's an order.

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Jeff Head said:

One thing I know..back then Gollevainen, as a Super Moderator, indicated that the talk about the conversion of the Kiev and Minsk for PLAN service was counter productive and not in the best interest of the forum to continue. He felt it shamed the forum to even consider it, and in fact ordered it to stop. And I quote from November 27, 2006:

Quote Originally Posted by Gollevainen View Post
NO NO NO and NO!!! I've always kept my personal views over matters in one side and the moderating the forum in other but in this situation I have to break my policy. The nonsense discussion of Kievs and Minsk in Chinese military service ends now. To allow it to continue brings only shame to our forum as we try to set up constructive, meaningless and reasonable discussion. Modernizing Kievs does not fall to that category. So if you wish to dream about these fantasies, continue it in the member's club room, but not in this thread.

It's an order.

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I think Gollevainen's point was that the PLAN was re-modelling itself after Western navies in vessels and tactics, the Kiev and Minsk were clear Soviet concepts that didn't belong. The Type 071 as well as the Liaoning proves him right. The Zubr would be an exception.

First, thanks all for your input regarding the Kievs. Secondly regarding Bd Popeye's post...

bd popeye said:

Exactly. Any discussion to re-furbish those ships was just fan boi speculation..

In this forum some years ago we had a discussion this subject..starting with this post..just read on.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/navy/all-about-chinese-aircraft-carrier-thread-43-264.html#post49290

And in the original SDF(2005) we had a discussion about this same subject...I'm an unregistared user.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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... perhaps all the replies here concerning the Kievs starting with my post on the previous page can be moved into that older thread? Discussion can continue there and this topic will be kept on theme. Thanks.

PanAsian said:

I think Gollevainen's point was that the PLAN was re-modelling itself after Western navies in vessels and tactics, the Kiev and Minsk were clear Soviet concepts that didn't belong. The Type 071 as well as the Liaoning proves him right. The Zubr would be an exception.

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I think the employment concepts for PLAN and for Western navies will remain different and PLAN is being remodeled to serve Chinese interests, not in imitation of those Western navies. The Western naval concepts are as inappropriate as the Soviet naval concepts.

mack8 said:

First, thanks all for your input regarding the Kievs. Secondly regarding Bd Popeye's post...


... perhaps all the replies here concerning the Kievs starting with my post on the previous page can be moved into that older thread? Discussion can continue there and this topic will be kept on theme. Thanks.

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I'll let Popeye decide, but that old thread is closed and a new version was started...which ultimately became this thread.

So going back in not really an option.

We do have a thread for future carrier ideas in the Members Club Room, so perhaps a new thread about "Old aircraft carrier conversions, what might have been?" or some such, could be started there.

PanAsian said:

I think Gollevainen's point was that the PLAN was re-modelling itself after Western navies in vessels and tactics, the Kiev and Minsk were clear Soviet concepts that didn't belong. The Type 071 as well as the Liaoning proves him right. The Zubr would be an exception.

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Goll had several points when you read back through those old posts, not the last of which was the abjectly bad material condition of those two carriers. As popeye also pointed out back then.

The PLAN did choose and base their initial carrier on a Soviet design, so the PLAN not wanting anything to do with old soviet concepts does not really apply.

They took the old Soviet design, refurbished it, and are now making that STOBAR design their own, with their own tactics and strategies which do differ from how the Soviets/Russians used the same design. But the entire STOBAR concept of mixing the ski-ramp with an arrested landing system was something the Soviets/Russians put into service.

mack8 said:

First, thanks all for your input regarding the Kievs. Secondly regarding Bd Popeye's post...

... perhaps all the replies here concerning the Kievs starting with my post on the previous page can be moved into that older thread? Discussion can continue there and this topic will be kept on theme. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Well there's really nothing to discuss. It's not ever going to happen. Those ships are toast as far as any re-fit is concerned. Plus that second thread is in the original SDF forum under a different server and we have an rule about opening old threads.

Enough said.

Thank you for your reply, well i took the previous suggestion above and made a topic in the MCR, so perhaps if it's not to much of a hassle all the off topic posts here can go there, the discussion will either continue for a bit, or just die off etc. I was just curious to read other peoples opinions about these ships and what could have been that's all.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...y-have-been-any-use-plan-6735.html#post264588

Jeff Head said:

Goll had several points when you read back through those old posts, not the last of which was the abjectly bad material condition of those two carriers. As popeye also pointed out back then.

The PLAN did choose and base their initial carrier on a Soviet design, so the PLAN not wanting anything to do with old soviet concepts does not really apply.

They took the old Soviet design, refurbished it, and are now making that STOBAR design their own, with their own tactics and strategies which do differ from how the Soviets/Russians used the same design. But the entire STOBAR concept of mixing the ski-ramp with an arrested landing system was something the Soviets/Russians put into service.

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That's all true but that's because Soviet hardware was the only option for China with the European and US arms embargoes in place. Even if the embargoes weren't in place it would probably cost China too much at the time for European or US hardware.

I don't believe this has been posted before. This is the steam generator of a nuclear reactor. Looks too large to be shipborne, and the 'Areva' logo tells me that it definitely is not shipborne, but the red banner in the background interestingly reads, "build nuclear carriers".