PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Jeff Head

General
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The Soviet Union towards its end in 1991 had 2 Moskva's, 4 Kievs and 1 Admiral Kuznetsov in service. The second hull of the Admiral Kuznetsov class was floating but only about 68% finished and the Ulyanovsk was still in the drydock only about 40% finished. The Admiral Kuznetsov didn't have its air wing yet and the Yak-38 Forgers was redrawn from service at that time. The MiG-29K, SU-33 and the Yak-41 Freestyle were all in the development and prototype phase. The Soviet Union had 7 flat tops in service. But none of them had a fixed wing aircraft air wing on board.
Actually, the 2nd Moskva vessel, the Lenningrad, was decommissioned in 1991 after 22 years of service. The Moskva was taken out of service at same time but held in reserve until 1996 when she too was decommisisoned after 29 years of service.

The Kievs did not last much lnger. The first three, the Kiev, the Minsk, and the Novorossiysk, were all decommissioned in June 1993, after only 18, 15, and an astonishing 11 years of service each.

The Baku, commisisoned in 1987, served until 1994 when she had a major boiler room explosion. She was however repaired and her name was changed to Admiral Gorshkov in 1995 when she was put back into service. Then, only a year later, she was decommissioned as well, after only 9 years of service!

Hard times had come to the Rodina, and the Red Banner Fleets.

As we know, the Gorshkov was finally sold to the Indians in 2004. The Indians got a vessel with only nine years service on it...despite the boiler room mishap. But, after 2005, a lot of price haggling and delays insued.

The Russians had lost their major carrier production facilities of the old Soviet Union in the Ukraine. The shipyard, Sevmash Enterprise, doing the refit of the Gorshkov, had a long and difficult learning curve.

But ultimately in 2009 work began to proceed rapidly and in 2012, she underwent trials, had to have her boiler bricks repaired, and then, as we saw, she was commissioned to India in September 2013 as the INS Virkamaditya, R33.

So, really in 1991, the Russians only had five carrier type vessels really in service, and as you say, they had no airwings. By 1993, two years later, the Russians only had two carriers left, the Gorshkov which had just come out of repaor, and the Kuznetsov which was just getting its airwing and becoming operational. By 1996, only the Kuznetsov remained, which to this day, now 18 years later, is still the only operational Russian aircraft carrier, sister ship to the Chinese Liaoning.

The Varyag, turned Liaoning, is, IMHO with its new refit by the Chinese, the superior vessel. The J-15 is a more capable multi-role strike aircaft than the SU-33. The sensor suite, particularly the newer APAR is superior to the RUssian radar that was installed (their APAR never worked), and the Chinese have the wherewithall, right now, to add the other necessary components to really enhance her.

Two-seat attack version of the J-15, EW variant of the J-15, a new AEW aircraft that can launch and recover on the Liaoning's STOBAR deck, and evolving, strong escorts for the carrier. Now, some of those things have not occurred yet, but my point is that the Chinese are not mired in near economic insolvency and have the money, the time, and the will to push these things to completion...including more carriers in the relative ner future.
 
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mack8

Junior Member
I always felt sorry for the 2 Kiev class that were bought by China, they could at least be refurbished and made into very potent missile-carrying/ ASW etc. helicopter carriers for PLAN (something roughly like Izumo or Hyuga, but bigger and more powerful), not to mention down the line they conceivably could have received some sort of upgrade similar to Vikramaditya and able to operate J-15, this way PLAN could have had as much as 3 carrier groups by 2015, or one fleet carrier group and two helicopter ASW groups... pitty those ships ended the way they did, at least if they were scrapped they would have met a "decent" end... but that's just me.

(Not to mention a variant in which the russians didn't sell them, as i doubt they have been of significant use for the chinese carrier research program in the nineties before Liaoning was aquired, perhaps one of them could have upgraded like Vikramaditya but for Russian Navy, thus becoming a badly needed companion for Kuznetsov,which could have long started her refit by now- and as far as China is concerned, more russian carriers mean more US carriers in Europe to counter them, thus less in Pacific facing China ! But i'm getting OT here)
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
I always felt sorry for the 2 Kiev class that were bought by China, they could at least be refurbished and made into very potent missile-carrying/ ASW etc. helicopter carriers for PLAN (something roughly like Izumo or Hyuga, but bigger and more powerful), not to mention down the line they conceivably could have received some sort of upgrade similar to Vikramaditya and able to operate J-15, this way PLAN could have had as much as 3 carrier groups by 2015, or one fleet carrier group and two helicopter ASW groups... pitty those ships ended the way they did, at least if they were scrapped they would have met a "decent" end... but that's just me.

(Not to mention a variant in which the russians didn't sell them, as i doubt they have been of significant use for the chinese carrier research program in the nineties before Liaoning was aquired, perhaps one of them could have upgraded like Vikramaditya but for Russian Navy, thus becoming a badly needed companion for Kuznetsov,which could have long started her refit by now- and as far as China is concerned, more russian carriers mean more US carriers in Europe to counter them, thus less in Pacific facing China ! But i'm getting OT here)

I respecfully disagree. I am glad PLAN didn't refurbish the 2 Kievs like the IN did the Vik. If PLAN had went ahead and spent billions turning those two into 'Vik like' carriers they probably have less incentive today to develop their own aggresive carierr program including a full deck flat top or CATOBAR. The refurbishment of Liaoning would've been taken even longer if at all since PLAN already has 2 carriers under going massive refit at that time. Yes PLAN could've had 2 carriers sailing as early as 2005/06 but in the long run I think it turned out better that they didn't.

The Kiev class just wasn't design to be full carriers even after massive refit. The vik is a good example. They probably done as much to her as they possibly can and yet she is still limited in her capability as a carrier compared to the Kuznetzov class which itself is inferior to obviously a supercarrier even a conventional one... and let's not even go down the path on how much $$$ and time Russia gutted India in the entire refurbishment program.

I am going to guess that PLAN probably spent a lot less $$$ to turn Varyag into Liaoning than IN did Adm. Gorskov to Vikramaditya and Liaoning is far superior.
Plan engineers now only has very intimate knowledge of Varyag's design that many have speculate the next one will be relatively simialr to her. If Plan had purchase the old Kiev's their natural tendency would've been to make their own 'imporved Kiev' which again back to my point is just not as capable as the Kudnedzov hull and two steps away from a CATOBAR.

Another very important point is the Kiev class is not the most ideal platform for Flanker types and I believe PLAN even back in the early 1990's have already forseen Flanker variants being their preeminent naval carrier strike fighter in the near future. Flanker is such a big plane the Liaoning is probably about as small as you want to go to carry big planes like that. If PLAN had turn the Kievs into carriers they would've had to go down the path of the MiG airframes and I just don't think that was ever in the cards for them and IMHO I think they made the right decision to go down the Flanker path.

One thing about China I've learn is they plan YEARS ahead. This is probably due to their 3000 yr old civilization. Actually make that decades!!! To them a couple years is nothing.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Even today we are faced with carriers from China and India two big powers who are using flat tops of the Soviet Navy

In a way it's better we see them like this rather than what could have been from the Soviet Navy a huge flat top fleet in the making toward the end of the collapse

Shows how powerful the Soviet Union would have been on the highs seas

2 Moskva Class
4 Kiev Class
2 Admiral Kuznetsov
And 1 Ulyanovsk

That's 9 flat tops with the the last 3 pretty good true aircraft carriers, it was a learning curve for Soviets with the first two Moskva giving the experience of the flat tops with the Kiev Clas being good ASW platforms we all know the Yak was crap

The Two Kuznetsov carriers were built on lessons from the Kievs not exactly brilliant but again the Ulyanovsk was the real deal with cats and traps

That's a pretty powerful navy

I concur with everything but the Yak being crap, I would remind everyone that Lockheed bought the Yaks and the rights to the "lift fan", and thanks to modern engineering, they have a much safer STOVL aircraft, and one that is much easier to fly than the Harrier, reports one of the Harrier test pilots after his transition into the B model. The fact that Lockheed bought the remaining aircraft and the production rights, and paid good money for them is indicative that the lift fan is the way to go for STOVL aircraft.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I concur with everything but the Yak being crap, I would remind everyone that Lockheed bought the Yaks and the rights to the "lift fan", and thanks to modern engineering, they have a much safer STOVL aircraft, and one that is much easier to fly than the Harrier, reports one of the Harrier test pilots after his transition into the B model. The fact that Lockheed bought the remaining aircraft and the production rights, and paid good money for them is indicative that the lift fan is the way to go for STOVL aircraft.

well that's half right. Yak's Vtol series used Lift Jets not lift fans. A Lift jet is basically a smaller Jet engine mounted vertically inside the fuselage of a aircraft. The F35B uses a Lift fan. This is a set of Coaxial rotors encased in a housing with a transmission that links it to the core of the F135 turbofan. What Lockheed martin licensed was primarily the 3 barring exhaust system. This is a system that allows the vectoring of the main exhaust gasses from the exhausts nozzle via a mechanical action.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
well that's half right. Yak's Vtol series used Lift Jets not lift fans. A Lift jet is basically a smaller Jet engine mounted vertically inside the fuselage of a aircraft. The F35B uses a Lift fan. This is a set of Coaxial rotors encased in a housing with a transmission that links it to the core of the F135 turbofan. What Lockheed martin licensed was primarily the 3 barring exhaust system. This is a system that allows the vectoring of the main exhaust gasses from the exhausts nozzle via a mechanical action.

Thank you TerraN, you are indeed correct, I had read that the soviets had also used the lift fan, you are correct in your reporting, the Yak 141 actually used 2 lift jets in tandem, that ran when you needed them, the intake door does have some similarity to the large door over the lift fan, and I had assumed my source was right, but that's why it is so important to verify the veracity of your source. Thank you for your correction, and my apologies for "missing this one". brat
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I would remind everyone that Lockheed bought the Yaks and the rights to the "lift fan", and thanks to modern engineering, they have a much safer STOVL aircraft, and one that is much easier to fly than the Harrier, reports one of the Harrier test pilots after his transition into the B model. The fact that Lockheed bought the remaining aircraft and the production rights, and paid good money for them is indicative that the lift fan is the way to go for STOVL aircraft.
The technology was decent, and it was improved on...but it is quite different than what we use. But the performance of the Yaks the Soviets deployed was abismal. US pilots called the Yaks "FUGSD," for "Fly up, get shot down."
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The technology was decent, and it was improved on...but it is quite different than what we use. But the performance of the Yaks the Soviets deployed was abismal. US pilots called the Yaks "FUGSD," for "Fly up, get shot down."

Yak-38 or yak-141? Cause they are very different aircraft and the latter has the lift fan and rotating engine nozzle technology which they were talking about in regards to F-35B.

And of course yak-141 was never deployed, only tested.

I heard the yak-38 was pretty bad but the 141 should have had mig-29 like performance.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
In this case we are discussing Yak 141 as that aircraft featured the exhausts nozzle rotation that Lockheed martin licensed for the F35B
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Yak-38 or yak-141? Cause they are very different aircraft and the latter has the lift fan and rotating engine nozzle technology which they were talking about in regards to F-35B.

And of course yak-141 was never deployed, only tested.

I heard the yak-38 was pretty bad but the 141 should have had mig-29 like performance.
Since I was speaking to the Yaks the Soviets actually deployed, I was speaking of the Yak-38s which the US Naval aviators were aware of and had to consider potentially engaging.

The Yak-141 would have been a great aircraft, but it never went into production and was never deployed. I believe only two prototypes were ever built.
 
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