PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

kwaigonegin said:

no argument there! I did say later they do look even nicer than on USN carriers LOL but I was doing more of a direct comparison with Kuznetsov since they were cut from the same steel so to speak! I guarantee you they don't look like that aboard Kunesov LOL

Makes me want to put on my old workclothes, boondockers etc and go work in the Liaoning for a couple weeks. The chow looks delicious too! I wonder if they have steak!
Don't care if they're cook on the deck or below

this is crew of the ronald Reagan grilling steaks.

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No! they don't have USDA farm fed beef ha ha, and I can guarantee that few other folks have steaks that look like that, that brother is corn and soybeans at work, makes me hungry and homesick for our old farm, the AFB has been a farm boy since first grade. Fact is our cattle eat better than 3/4s of the rest of the world, we fed our cattle Alfalfa hay, also very high in nutrition. The black loam that spreads across the US is likely the most productive soil in the world, yes we are spoiled, and no most folks don't appreciate it. (I do, I've seen how other folks live) Our soldiers and sailors have gotten the very best, but these are very lean times in the USA, if we don't have a change of command, they will get leaner, we are at a place now, where folks are starting to HURT, but I will also guarantee that you "ain't seen nothing yet" as Bachman Turner Overdrive used to sing. Come on out to Central Obamastan Kwai, and I will grill you a steak brother, if it takes the last dime in my pitiful retirement account. LOL

But I do love Chinese Food, my SIL who is home from Germany, fixed a Chicken Stir Fry the other night that was out of this world, he was home on leave, I hate to see him have to fly back to Germany, he has one more year on his assignment there, I think he will likely get out of the Army as he is a very bright lad....

bd popeye said:

Truth ^^^ SampanViking truth is what you've posted. Excellent post.

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I fully concur, you gentlemen cut through the icing and get to the cake, that nugget of truth is worth the price of the play!

Regarding the inclusion of an 071 in this formation, let's not get too carried away with the implications, but simply saying it is there for a photo op probably isn't giving them enough credit either.


Remember, this is probably the largest single concentration of a PLAN "task force" in its history in terms of both ship number and displacement (outside of navy red vs blue type exercises), and this is also the first "task force" put together by the PLAN which included both the aircraft carrier and the four escorts from NSF.

Now, the rationale of this particular formation must be considered against the larger backdrop of the PLAN's three fleets, as well as recognition that the PLAN only have one aircraft carrier, but many potential escorts, and a few large amphibious support ships that may also be beneficial in a power projection scenario.

So that means, for the forseeable future, the Liaoning must be able to maneuver and operate with a variety of different potential escorts and tag alongs, whether they be LPDs, LSTs, and a few extra destroyers or frigates outside whatever "core" escort it is given.


Basically what I'm saying, is I don't think we should read too much into the composition of this exercise/photo. It isn't a "standard" CSG grouping due to the addition of the 071 and a couple more escorts than necessary, but that's the point imo -- the PLAN need to make the liaoning as comfortable in leading/operating in the center of a flexible and liquid formation of other ships that may change depending on the situation.



I see this exercise not too different from the USN sending CSGs training with the navies of other nations like Japan, who might send a Hyuga and a couple destroyers of their own as part of the CSG. It is basically a familiarization exercise with other potential ships that you may operate with one day.


Sure, an 071 might be able to bring a handful of additional helicopters for the ASW role for the task force, and yes, if it is forced to eventually deploy its marine battalion it'll probably have to take a few escorts along with it -- but these are all details. More important is the larger picture, namely, the Liaoning must be familiar in large task force maneuvers first, because it's the only carrier China will have for a few years yet.
Whether the Liaoning will provide primarily CAP or primarily strike missions forsuch a task group is a different matter, and will naturally depend on the situation at hand. But the bottom line, is that in whatever situation, the Liaoning will definitely be operating with a large number of ships instead of only the carrier's escorts alone, and may indeed hold the commanding flag for the entire task group.


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On a different subject, looks like the J-15 actually does have a refuelling pod, copied from UPAZ-E, pretty confident it's legit although the camera snapping the picture of the magazine gives it a somewhat CG sheen.
Nice for the confirmation.

Air Force Brat said:

No! they don't have USDA farm fed beef ha ha, and I can guarantee that few other folks have steaks that look like that, that brother is corn and soybeans at work, makes me hungry and homesick for our old farm, the AFB has been a farm boy since first grade. Fact is our cattle eat better than 3/4s of the rest of the world, we fed our cattle Alfalfa hay, also very high in nutrition. The black loam that spreads across the US is likely the most productive soil in the world, yes we are spoiled, and no most folks don't appreciate it. (I do, I've seen how other folks live) Our soldiers and sailors have gotten the very best, but these are very lean times in the USA, if we don't have a change of command, they will get leaner, we are at a place now, where folks are starting to HURT, but I will also guarantee that you "ain't seen nothing yet" as Bachman Turner Overdrive used to sing. Come on out to Central Obamastan Kwai, and I will grill you a steak brother, if it takes the last dime in my pitiful retirement account. LOL

But I do love Chinese Food, my SIL who is home from Germany, fixed a Chicken Stir Fry the other night that was out of this world, he was home on leave, I hate to see him have to fly back to Germany, he has one more year on his assignment there, I think he will likely get out of the Army as he is a very bright lad....

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hey brat, are your cattles better than the Waygu beef? I do live in the midwest so I've gotten plenty of good steaks but Im easy to please.. as long as the grill can go above 400 it'll make good steak. Probelm with most folks is they don't have the grill hot enough before they throw the meat in.

Well, we know when the Liaoning departed for the South China Sea that they said specifically she was going to be particpating in formational manuevers.

I have no doubt that a part of those manuervers included amphibious vessels, because we know that when the USS Cowpens got too close for their comfort, it was amphibious ships that the PLAN used to try and contain her.

So, there is every reason to suspect that the manuevers and training and familiarization that the PLAN was doing delt with those vessels and the escorts necessary for them individually, and combined as a whole.

We know that the Liaoning was escorted by two Type 054A FFGs, and two Type 051C DDGs. All of those are seen in these pictures.

We also see a Type 071 LPD, a Type 052C DDG and another Type 054A FFG. All of those were in the photos too, along with a couple of submarines.

So, I expect there was at least a part of the time when these two groups came together and practised manuever exercises.

The PLAN surely took photos of all of that for training and review purposes. They did not have to publish them to the world. But they did. That was a calculated publication by the PLAN/PRC to send messages like referred to earlier on the thread right after they published them.

There were certainly technical/training/exercise reasons for the manuevers...but the photos we saw that were published were a photo op by the PLAN to present to the world.

How much impact/influence did the photo op have?

Well, at least in some of the photos we see the whole group of vessels sailing very close abreast of one another. That was certainly photo op. Usually, short of UNREPP exercises (which they may very well have practised too) vessels in a task force will never sail all bunched up together like that. So it is clear some of the photos were arranged specifically for the photo op and its intended message.

Others, where they are much more widely seperated, may well have been photos they decided to include in the photo op of the actual manuevers. Short of being a part of the PR/Communbication departments publishing the photos, and outside of the obvious, it is hard to know which is which .

But make no mistake, we and the rest of the world are seeing those specific pictures because they are precisely what the PLAN/PRC wanted us to see.

The US Navy, the UK, the French, the Japanese, etc., etc. all do the same type of thing as they release pictures.

For the US now, it is so open, that short of a picture revealing something very sensitive, the US releases many hundreds of pictures of its vessels all of the time. And that is precisely what it wants to do...to show others how many capable vessels it constantly has out performing exercise4s all over the world.

plawolf said:

I seriously doubt that the first indigenous Chinese carrier, even if built tomorrow, would be all that similar to the Liaoning. I think you will find that most of the people advocating that the first Chinese indigenous carrier will be a copy of the Liaonjng tend to be the same people who argue China copies everything and cannot innovate in the slightest.

Even if work has already started on an indigenous carrier, I would expect it to look far more like the QEII than the Liaoning.

If you think about it, there is precious little that the worth copying about the Vayarg/Liaoning design, and there are plenty of evidence that the Chinese engineers have been hamstrung by the limitations of the old Varyag, and that the PLAN tried copying how the Russians did things on their Kutz, and ultimately rejected it in favour of going their own route based more off of American carrier ops.

Beyond a similar tonnage, maybe the same propolsion and having a ski jump, I cannot see what else an indigenous Chinese carrier would have in common with the Varyag.

At the very least, I would expect a far smaller island structure, a much bigger hanger, more sensible located weapons elevators, maybe a third aircraft elevator on the starboard side, and hopefully a longer runway and/or slighter bigger angle offset for the angled deck so they can use both forward launch positions while recovery ops are on-going.

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I too want to see China's first indigenous to be completely different in appearance, but I am inclined to believe that the first ship will at least share the same hull as Liaoning. Other than that, I think the island will be reduced in size just like you said, and the interior will be rearranged to be more suited to PLAN's needs. That way, China will have a chance to practice with building a modified carrier before building a completely new design.

China has both refitted, operated and possesses the design papers for the Kuznetsov class. So it will be logical for them to build their first AC based on that design. The ship doesn't have to look completely different from the Liaoning but they can make redesign changes that would make the ship much more efficient than the current one.

If they would just extent the width of the flight deck by 2m or 3m and shrink the size of the island structure they will already have made that ship more efficient than the current one. And inside the ship they will have to try to find extra space for the hangar deck. Once again a extention of just a few meters will make much difference. Of course shrinking the island structure means that the facilities that it host will either have to move below deck or have to be cancelled completely. The ship will be far less luxurious than the Liaoning and much more business like.

And if they can throw in a catapult on the angled deck, that will be a huge bonus.

If they have a working catapult to put on the angled deck they may as well put one or two on the the bow as well.


I would be immensely incredulous if a ski jump + only waist catapult design is ever implemented by any navy as part of their baseline design, I.e. Not refit. However even then if the designers had built the carrier for but not with a waist catapult they should also have designed the bow to have the ski jump modified and removed with the relevant open spacing needed for at least a bow catapult as well.

To not do so would be a massive oversight.

China has a good working knowledge of the workings of an ac learning from the Liaoning and with its ship building experience, it can build up a bigger design if it deems necessary. The question is whether it finds Liaoning big enough to accommodate all that is necessary to carry out its mission in view of the enemies' strength.

It already has all the necessary tools and knowledge to build a larger unit.

Franklin said:

China has both refitted, operated and possesses the design papers for the Kuznetsov class. So it will be logical for them to build their first AC based on that design. The ship doesn't have to look completely different from the Liaoning but they can make redesign changes that would make the ship much more efficient than the current one.

If they would just extent the width of the flight deck by 2m or 3m and shrink the size of the island structure they will already have made that ship more efficient than the current one. And inside the ship they will have to try to find extra space for the hangar deck. Once again a extention of just a few meters will make much difference. Of course shrinking the island structure means that the facilities that it host will either have to move below deck or have to be cancelled completely. The ship will be far less luxurious than the Liaoning and much more business like.

And if they can throw in a catapult on the angled deck, that will be a huge bonus.

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Don't forget automation. If they can automate, reduce, redesign or maybe even get rid of some of the non essential things from the current ship it would mean a reduction in crew. Even a 5-10% decrease in complement would equate to significant space savings.
There is a lot of potential in that hull. The ship can still basically look the same like Liaoning on the outside but yet have a significant increase in capabilities if the insides are different. There is no reason why the hanger for example can't extend a few more meters forward on a redeisgn Liaoning. Island definitely needs to be smaller like most all of us agree on.
If the new ship has a more efficient and smaller propulsion systems the stack and the vents can probably be reduced in size as well which in turn would reduce the size of the island structure.