PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

asif iqbal said:

Nice one! It says from 110m primary position with 25 knot headwind MTOW is 32 tons and 0 wind its 28 tons

However the secondary 195m position is not compete, what is the MTOW with head wind of 25 knots and what is MTOW in no wind from this longer position? I reckon they could do 32 tons from this position without head wind and maybe more if there is head wind, but what is the maximum take off weight for J-15?

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Well it claims it can do the Su-33s MTOW of 32 tons at the 195 position without headwind, so if they had headwind, they can't do anything more than MTOW, that is to say, the structure of the aircraft won't support anything heavier. (It's called "maximum" takeoff weight for a reason )

Btw 9 ton internal fuel load doesn't seem right

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I think the Su-27SK has an internal fuel load of 9.5 tons. Having looked at some forums with Russian aviation followers, they say Su-33 has a slightly larger wing fuel tank. Of course, the wing is also designed with a folding mechanism, reducing fuel volume. Add the two together, and you get a final internal fuel load of about 9 tons.
Remember, the flanker is a massive aircraft.

Bltizo said:

Well it claims it can do the Su-33s MTOW of 32 tons at the 195 position without headwind, so if they had headwind, they can't do anything more than MTOW, that is to say, the structure of the aircraft won't support anything heavier. (It's called "maximum" takeoff weight for a reason )
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Oh right yeah lol well lets say is if the empty weight is 18-19 tons that means adding a full fuel load we reach 27-28 tons which means if there is no wind there is no space for weapons or very little?

If there is a headwind of 25 knots then you can add in 4-5 tons of weapons from primary position

Which is why the PLAN probably made sure they do have a 3rd take off position for the day when conditions are not ideal and they can still get a fully fuelled and fully loaded J-15 in the air from the secondary position but only one at a time

So it comes down to this

Primary position no wind full fuel no weapons, 25 knot wind then full fuel and full weapons
For the day when all wind doesnt pick up Secondary position no wind can get fully fuelled and loaded J-15 in the air

Now I bet if they had buddy refueling they could get a fully loaded weapons J-15 in the air from the primary position and top it up while it's in the air

So we have a number of scenarios, PLAN will have a chart that shows them all this and depending on the incoming threat that has been identified they need to decide what fuel, weapons and launch position they need to pick

The real deal is deciding all this in the middle of a battle while there is a constant changing situation, that why the crew have to be drilled drilled drilled over and over again so when it comes to the real thing it's natural reaction

asif iqbal said:

Oh right yeah lol well lets say is if the empty weight is 18-19 tons that means adding a full fuel load we reach 27-28 tons which means if there is no wind there is no space for weapons or very little?

If there is a headwind of 25 knots then you can add in 4-5 tons of weapons from primary position

Which is why the PLAN probably made sure they do have a 3rd take off position for the day when conditions are not ideal and they can still get a fully fuelled and fully loaded J-15 in the air from the secondary position but only one at a time

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A carrier during air ops should be steaming at 25 knots (at least) anyway, so even on a still day without wind they can still easily generate it.

So it comes down to this

Primary position no wind full fuel no weapons, 25 knot wind then full fuel and full weapons

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Or, something like half fuel and half weapons.

Remember just how large the flanker is — you won't need a full fuel take off weight or full external payload take off weight for most missions.

Right, 32 tons is the MTOW (i.e. the maximum weight the structure can support) of the J-15, and it can take off with MTOW from the 195m position with no headwind. In other words, catapults would make no difference for the 195m position, but would significantly increase the TOW at the 110m positions when there's less headwind.

dingyibvs said:

Right, 32 tons is the MTOW (i.e. the maximum weight the structure can support) of the J-15, and it can take off with MTOW from the 195m position with no headwind. In other words, catapults would make no difference for the 195m position, but would significantly increase the TOW at the 110m positions when there's less headwind.

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Yep, however, even CATOBAR carrier will steam into the wind to generate headwind, so during normal flight ops there shouldn't be a major difference in take off weight for CATOBAR and STOBAR, for fighter aircraft at least.

Which is why I believe that a CATOBAR carrier's major advantage is not because it can launch fighters at full load while STOBAR can't, but rather that a CATOBAR carrier can reliably launch a relatively lower power to weight, fixed wing AEWC whereas a STOBAR cannot.

Bltizo said:

Yep, however, even CATOBAR carrier will steam into the wind to generate headwind, so during normal flight ops there shouldn't be a major difference in take off weight for CATOBAR and STOBAR, for fighter aircraft at least.

Which is why I believe that a CATOBAR carrier's major advantage is not because it can launch fighters at full load while STOBAR can't, but rather that a CATOBAR carrier can reliably launch a relatively lower power to weight, fixed wing AEWC whereas a STOBAR cannot.

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Well this is a important point and the reason why carrier strike groups buzz around at 30 knots and plus, even if the Liaoning is caught off guard they can still get a fully loaded and fully fuelled bird in the air which is the important point

Question really comes down to what AWACS will the Liaoning use, I wonder if they can develop a AWACS to launch from the secondary position fully loaded

If they can launch a fully fuelled and loaded J-15 from secondary position with no wind then they might be able to launch a AWACS from that possible if they are clocking 25+ knots, might be a tough call but it might be possible

asif iqbal said:

Question really comes down to what AWACS will the Liaoning use, I wonder if they can develop a AWACS to launch from the secondary position fully loaded

If they can launch a fully fuelled and loaded J-15 from secondary position with no wind then they might be able to launch a AWACS from that possible if they are clocking 25+ knots, might be a tough call but it might be possible

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I very much doubt that they will use anything other than a rotary AEWC.

If one could reliably launch a turboprop AEW from a STOBAR carrier I expect the IN would have bought E-2s for Vicky straight off the bat.

Bltizo said:

I very much doubt that they will use anything other than a rotary AEWC.

If one could reliably launch a turboprop AEW from a STOBAR carrier I expect the IN would have bought E-2s for Vicky straight off the bat.

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I do agree that they will most likely use helo for that purpose like many of the worlds navy do and for fixed wing catapult is really the way forward but I think it would be a good experiment to do for PLAN, isn't there a Y-7 based AWACS under development

I don't think Indian carry has a 195m stretch from secondary position?

Correct me if i'm wrong. But when there is strong wind usually captains of aircraft carriers turn their ships around so that the planes won't have to face head or side wind during launch. That's even more important for a STOBAR carrier.

Franklin said:

Correct me if i'm wrong. But when there is strong wind usually captains of aircraft carriers turn their ships around so that the planes won't have to face head or side wind during launch. That's even more important for a STOBAR carrier.

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Yes, I believe carriers prefer to steam into the wind during flight ops.