PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Franklin said:

The Chinese aircraft carrier program like all others have a plan, a schedule, a budget, a timeline, milestones, targets and goals they have set to achieve over certain time to measure progress. And that goes for the J-15 as well. We don't know anything about this stuff! Without this kind of information we cannot judge rather the carrier program is doing well.

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Yes...but the Liaoning has left port (her home port) and is now based in, and exercising in the South China Sea for the next good while. So we do know something about that.

And, we have seen announcements now that the J-15 is in LRIP, and we have seen production aircraft flying. We do not know how many, and we do not know where they are with respect to IOC, but we do know that is happening.

All of this is huge progress over what we were all waiting on just two years ago. And I expect that type of progress will continue over the next two years, and the two after that, and so forth.

In respect to the size of aircraft carriers:
Am I correct in thinking that the number of aircraft that can be recovered in a given time is not strongly related to the size of the vessel? There is just the one runway with arrester cables.
And that the number of aircraft that can be launched in a time period is dependent on the number of take off paths, cats resp. routes over the ski ramp.
It thus seems to me that three medium sized nuclear powered flattops with two take off paths will be equivalent with a pair of USN CVN's for launch performance, which CVN's are said to use generally three cats rather than all four, but a third better in recovering aircraft, assuming of course equivalent technology and training.
This suggest to me that a beginning flattop user would do well to limit itself to medium sized flattops, even if there are no other reasons to do so.

Jeff Head said:

Yes...but the Liaoning has left port (her home port) and is now based in, and exercising in the South China Sea for the next good while. So we do know something about that.

And, we have seen announcements now that the J-15 is in LRIP, and we have seen production aircraft flying. We do not know how many, and we do not know where they are with respect to IOC, but we do know that is happening.

All of this is huge progress over what we were all waiting on just two years ago. And I expect that type of progress will continue over the next two years, and the two after that, and so forth.

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It doesn't matter rather she is moored at Qingdao or Sanya, she is not out at sea allowing both the pilots and the crew to train.

As for the J-15 is great to see that the plane has finally entered production. I hope to see at least 16 for the initial air wing and perhabs 8 twin seat J-15S to follow in the coming years.

And for the reasons why the Liaoning is not out at sea more often one can only guess. I suppose the PLAN has designed a training program for the Liaoning and her crew for the coming years. And they are following that program. Rather they have encountered difficulties is hard to say. The only visible problem that i can observe at this point is that the Liaoning doesn't go out to sea often enough.

Franklin said:

It doesn't matter rather she is moored at Qingdao or Sanya, she is not out at sea allowing both the pilots and the crew to train.

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?
Are you criticizing the amount of time they are at sea isn't enough? Because no ship is at sea 24/7.

And for the reasons why the Liaoning is not out at sea more often one can only guess. I suppose the PLAN has designed a training program for the Liaoning and her crew for the coming years. And they are following that program. Rather they have encountered difficulties is hard to say. The only visible problem that i can observe at this point is that the Liaoning doesn't go out to sea often enough.

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That's the question, isn't it -- what is "often enough"?


Anyone know how much an average USN carrier is out at sea for its duration of its life and how much of it is spent in maintenance, refit or simply at home port?
It'll be a simple matter of comparing that fraction with the Liaoning's own at sea/at port ratio since it first started shipbuilder's trials.


Edit:
Also, I want to add that operating a carrier is more than simply pilots flying off the deck and landing. Pilot training might be the most high profile part of carrier operations, but in some ways, it is the easiest, because it only involves the individual pilots skill.
On the other hand, getting the support infrastructure for a carrier right to allow it to base at different locations and thus support its operations for various contingencies, getting the logistics right, are all equally as important and probably more difficult than a pilot taking off and landing (or even aircrew spotting aircraft on deck), because it requires cooperation with a multitude of military organs.

This is the largest warship the PLAN has ever operated, and their first vessel of this kind. I think we can forgive them for not constantly being out at sea. It's still early days yet in the PLAN's march to a true carrier capability, and I see nothing about their pace so far which makes me think they're too slow.

Franklin said:

It doesn't matter rather she is moored at Qingdao or Sanya, she is not out at sea allowing both the pilots and the crew to train.

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She just sailed down to Sanya. She will soon be out to sea with her escorts...my point is that we have seen the Liaoning out performing exercises and training up her crew and pilots.

She's just doing it to the PLAN's schedule...and that schedule can e impacted by numerous issues to which we are not privy.

Franklin said:

And for the reasons why the Liaoning is not out at sea more often one can only guess. I suppose the PLAN has designed a training program for the Liaoning and her crew for the coming years. And they are following that program. Rather they have encountered difficulties is hard to say. The only visible problem that i can observe at this point is that the Liaoning doesn't go out to sea often enough.

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Exactly. I agree. And that is one of my major points.

Intrepid said:

I guess, J-15 was grounded several times for technical reasons and is at this moment grounded. Actual there is no progress and the dilemma is that the whole program is based on only one airframe. The ship is ready, but it is missing its aircraft.

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I do think we need a link to confirm the the J-15 was/is grounded, not at all unusual to have to play with LRIP aircraft, but to say they are having a technical problem could mean they had to change tires, engines, avionics, and drill a few holes to stop cracks from propogating, all things we will be doing with the F-35, these are more accurately referred to as "maintenance". I appreciate your knowledge, but I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate, now if you have inside knowledge of something more, just spell out the issue, no need to "blow cover" on someone, and please don't do that.... brat

Air Force Brat said:

... but I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate, now if you have inside knowledge of something more, just spell out the issue, no need to "blow cover" on someone, and please don't do that.... brat

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No, I have no inside knowledge. I just see a full functional carrier without birds. I think, more than one year after delivery Liaoning should sail every other week to give the pilots a plattform for training, but she is cruising with her escorts and without her aircraft. And that is not normal for my understanding, that has a reason.

May be, the J-15 isn't any longer grounded (we never know actual, what is the matter; we always look into the past). But I think it was grounded for a while or several short times. It seems to me not as reliable as expected. No surprise for a new aircraft, so the reaction of some of you to my guess is a surprise for me.

delft said:

In respect to the size of aircraft carriers:
Am I correct in thinking that the number of aircraft that can be recovered in a given time is not strongly related to the size of the vessel? There is just the one runway with arrester cables.
And that the number of aircraft that can be launched in a time period is dependent on the number of take off paths, cats resp. routes over the ski ramp.

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Normal landing sequence is every 40 sec. one aircraft. The limiting factor is deckspace to park the aircraft that have left the runway.
Same for take-off, the limiting factor for a alpha-strike is the space, where you can park your involved aircraft.

Intrepid said:

No, I have no inside knowledge. I just see a full functional carrier without birds.

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Well, they have had, at the most, three J-15s on deck at any one time.

I agree that it would be, and will be, nice to see more. I also agree that after this much time, I would expect to see more.

A this point we also know that there are more (more than two prototypes and a number more than the single aircraft painted in PLAN colors). So, yes, it is easy to wonder why.

Intrepid said:

...the reaction of some of you to my guess is a surprise for me.

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It's because you stated:

Intrepid said:

I guess, J-15 was grounded several times for technical reasons and is at this moment grounded.

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I just asked for a link to verify that they were indeed grounded. I had not thought they were. But if they are, I wanted to see some official PLAN link/documentation indicating it.

That's all.

Intrepid said:

No, I have no inside knowledge. I just see a full functional carrier without birds. I think, more than one year after delivery Liaoning should sail every other week to give the pilots a plattform for training, but she is cruising with her escorts and without her aircraft. And that is not normal for my understanding, that has a reason.

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Well her current station at Sanya doesn't seem to be intended to train pilots, it's to test the infrastructure of the base and see how the carrier works in a warmer environment compared to the north.

When she was in the north, she constantly had J-15s onboard. Do you think they also need J-15s onboard right now as well?

May be, the J-15 isn't any longer grounded (we never know actual, what is the matter; we always look into the past). But I think it was grounded for a while or several short times. It seems to me not as reliable as expected. No surprise for a new aircraft, so the reaction of some of you to my guess is a surprise for me.

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Unfortunately, the idea that J-15s have been grounded is founded on unstable premises.
The first production batch have been accepted into the navy, and just a few weeks ago we still had pictures of J-15s operarting off the carrier, there's been nothing to suggest the aircraft has been grounded. Yes, the liaoning didn't go south with her jets, but that says less about the status of the J-15s and speaks more about why the carrier is going south in the first place.

Lack of constant pictures and videos isn't a good enough argument because we only get scant evidence of what the PLA ever do with their toys anyway.