PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Intrepid said:

No, I have no inside knowledge. I just see a full functional carrier without birds. I think, more than one year after delivery Liaoning should sail every other week to give the pilots a plattform for training, but she is cruising with her escorts and without her aircraft. And that is not normal for my understanding, that has a reason.

May be, the J-15 isn't any longer grounded (we never know actual, what is the matter; we always look into the past). But I think it was grounded for a while or several short times. It seems to me not as reliable as expected. No surprise for a new aircraft, so the reaction of some of you to my guess is a surprise for me.

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SAC might have built a batch of 24 aircraft before the first deck landing. Than Liaoning's deck would now have been well filled. But while LM is able to design a tail hook that was clearly of the wrong shape where would SAC and PLAN have found the crust to think their design was already good enough. The prototypes are good enough for training but it's likely that a thousand small things will have had to be changed before the first batch could be produced. So it is likely that that first batch could start producing three or more months after the first deck landing - win experience, decide on changes, change rigs and molds. And then it takes how many months before the first aircraft are delivered? ( This concerns just producing a special Flanker batch, not LRIP ).

J-15 is an relatively unambitious development of the Su-33. That increase the likelihood that, from the start, J-15 prototype had gotten most things as right as 10 years of actual Su-33 service would allow. So a relatively fast development cycle from 1st prototype to 1st series production aircraft should have been expected.

Undoubtedly, once J-15 is in squadron service and Liaoning had opportunity to practice some intense flying operation with a full deck of aircraft, more things wrong would be identified than could have been found through low pace operation. So there would probably be a product improvement program instituted on the J-15 some 3-5 years after the first series production bird takes to the air.

chuck731 said:

J-15 is an relatively unambitious development of the Su-33.

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Well, actually it is a little more involved than that.

The J-15 was developed from two aircraft.

The first was the T-10K-3 aircraft that the chinese aquired from the Ukraine in 2001. This was an unfinished prototype of the RUssian SU-33. The Chinese studied it extensively and then began the development process for thier own naval fighter.

The second, and the aircraft that by far represented the largest contributor to the J-15, was the Chinese indegenous J-11B Aircraft.

The J-11B was a significant upgrade/improvement to the Chinese J-11, which was directly developed from the SU-27SK that the Chinese licens built 200 of under a Russian manufactruring license. The Chinese decided that they wanted to improve the design, and to also make it an aircratf that theu could build in China with no strings attached. so, the made numerous improvements and upgrades. This included improvements to the airframe, using composite materials and making changes that reduced the RCS and lightened the aircraft by over 700kg. It included manufacturing process improvements to be able to build the aircraft faster and less expensively.

There wer significant chanes/upgrades made with more advanced Chinese radars, avionics, and other systems. For example, the added the N001VE radar with the Baguet series BCVM-486-6 processor. This system is capable of simultaneously engaging two of ten targets tracked with the Chinese semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles. An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight (HMS) system was also added. The J-11B cockpit incorporates an EFIS designed by China Aviation Industry Corporation, which replaces most of the original Su-27SK's analogue dial indicators with four color Multi-Function diplsays (MFDs). They added MAWS and IRST. The aircraft was also made and alos fully compatible with Chinese weapons systems from the outset.

The first J-11 flew in 1998. The first J-11B was introduced in 2007.

All of the innovations developed into the J-11B have been passed on to the J-15. The J-15 married all of this with the chnages necessary to allow for aircraft carrier operations that were gleaned from their studies of the TK-10-3 prototype SU-33.

The first flight of the J-15 was in August 2009, and then, of course, we saw the aircraft woking extensively with the Liaoning in 2012-2013, that first carrier landing announced on November 25, 2012. During this time frame it was announced that the aircraft was in LRIP.

Now, on December 3rd it has been reported that the J-15 has gone into full production.

Taiwan Focus said:

Taipei, Dec. 3 (CNA)
Mass production has reportedly begun on China's Shenyang J-15, a carrier-based fighter jet, in a move that indicates Beijing has started picking up the pace in training and development for its first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.

China's Global Times and CCTV, both giant state-run media outlets, reported Tuesday that Shenyang Aircraft Corp. has already begun "handing (the planes) over to the military."

Neither outlet gave specifics on the number of fighters produced.

Regarding the J-15 production, the Global Times indicated:

"The mass production and delivery of J-15 serves to further boost the progress and level of training for the Liaoning," the Global Times wrote in Chinese.

Reports said the J-15 is sea-grey color, with the flag of the People's Liberation Army Navy behind the cabin and a flying shark painted on its rear wing. The nose art and tail are said to feature its official designation.

That description differs from the yellow-painted test planes previously spotted landing on the Liaoning.

Song Zhongping, a Beijing-based commentator on military affairs, said that the repainting means the fighters are in service and battle-ready.

"They're pretty much ready. The J-15 (crew) has already completed its training and has begun shifting to a formal force," he said.

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Numerous western outlets reported this, and it was well reported within China of course. But we are still unaware of the specific numbers. Both the numbers from the LRIP run, and now the numbers from this full rate production.

Chuck731 said:

That increase the likelihood that, from the start, J-15 prototype had gotten most things as right as 10 years of actual Su-33 service would allow. So a relatively fast development cycle from 1st prototype to 1st series production aircraft should have been expected.

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As shown, that happened betrween 2009 with the first prototype to 2102 with LRIP, to late 2013 now with reported full production.

Chuck731 said:

Undoubtedly, once J-15 is in squadron service and Liaoning had opportunity to practice some intense flying operation with a full deck of aircraft, more things wrong would be identified than could have been found through low pace operation. So there would probably be a product improvement program instituted on the J-15 some 3-5 years after the first series production bird takes to the air.

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I agree that as the J-15 is significantly exercised aboard the Liaoning, that other improvements will be forthcoming based on those experiences, and based on newer technologies and innovations that the PLAN wants intergrated into the aircraft. A 3-5 year time frame will certainly be a good time froma to afford them that opportunity.

Liaoning in Sanya port

Can some one explain to me what this is about. China has several concrete aircraft carriers. I count at least 3. Are these things meant to be art, theme parks or training facilities ?

This one is near Shanghai and is suppose to be part of a theme park.



This one is in Binzhou city Shangdong province, but what for ?





This one is in Wuhan, but i don't think this is meant for training. There is a special training facility for that and its not in Wuhan.

Franklin said:

Can some one explain to me what this is about. China has several concrete aircraft carriers. I count at least 3. Are these things meant to be art, theme parks or training facilities ?

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This one is near Shanghai and is suppose to be part of a theme park.

[pic]

This one is in Binzhou city Shangdong province, but what for ?

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This one is in Wuhan, but i don't think this is meant for training. There is a special training facility for that and its not in Wuhan.

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The first two are non-military and I believe are either theme parks or museums. The last one at Wuhan is in fact a PLAN training/research facility.

This is however, completely off-topic, and if you want to continue this discussion more, it will need to be in another thread.

There has a scale model of the CV-16 Battle Grp at a Shanghai exhibition.

Photos from


This must be very very costly...

Another set of different scale model...

FarkTypeSoldier said:

There has a scale model of the CV-16 Battle Grp at a Shanghai exhibition.

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This must be very very costly...

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The models themselves...unless thay are scratch built...not so much.

The dioramas and the case...moderately sp. I imagine that case cost more than all of the unassembled model kits together. The time to put them all together, that would be time consuming and expensive.

I have two Type 054As, one Type 052C, one Type 052B, an SSN and the Liaoning, all in 1/350 scale. These models look like 1/350 scale. My Liaoning is a little less than 3ft long and that looks about the size of these models. All of those took me about 5-6 months of after work time (in the evenings) to build. Total cost for the kits was maybe $250-300 US dollars.

It is interesting the group they are showing.

I clearly make out:

1 x Liaoning
2 x Type 052C
2 x Type 051C
2 x Type 054A
1 x Type 052B
1 x Type 093 SSN

Strong grouping that. Eight escorts for the carrier.

Apparently it is a branch of the Shanghai Maritime exhibition that put it together. It is an older configuration and set of models because the DDGs and FFGs have the old pennant number styles.

Here are my PLAN 1/350 scale models:


One day I will get them all out on our dinner table and take a few pics of them all together.

The aircraft spotted on the starboard side take off position of the model appear to have su-34 style side by side cockpit canopy.

Either the model maker wasn't particular about which plane kit he threw on the model, or the PLAN has some plans to field a side by side dual trainer or perhaps even a more dedicated strike variant of j-15 with side by side seating similar to the su-34.

Also, what is that remarkable 4 engined AWAC parked on the rear of that carrier? That is the first 4 engined carrier aircraft I've seen, and by comparison to the j-15s parked next to it possibly the smallest 4 engine jet aircraft with engines in underwing nacelles ever. It vaguely resembles a scaled down BAE 146 regional jet with a Radome attached.