PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

bd popeye said:

Personally I feel the Chinese should have opted for an off the shelf aircraft such as the MiG-29. Much smaller and easier to handle aboard ships. And by now they would have had many more aircraft in service. And we wold be seeing a lot more action aboard CV-16.. Oh well....But I understand the PLAN wanted their own aircraft. And now they have it.

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China has chosen Flanker over Fulcrum in early 90's and I believe poor show of Mig-29 in Gulf War had a lot to do with it . IMHO , it was a wise decision , as Mig-29 has a lot of flaws - even newest and most current versions cannot rectify all of this .

After that , everything was logical : China decided to produce their own version of Flanker (J-11) , fighter they got to know and for the most part like . As India decided to fund development of Mig-29K (mostly because of small size of INS Vikramaditya ) , it was certain they cannot purchase that plane . So only thing left was to acquire Su-33 prototype and improve on it , utilizing already acquired knowledge of Flanker family .

asif iqbal said:

On this recent voyage the Liaoning sailed away from shallow water and in to deeper water for the first time, and because of that it had four escorts, 2 DDG and 2 FFG, the FFG would be doing the underwater screening in tight formation while DDG would also be using sonar to detect any submarines, in addition maybe it could be possible that a PLAN SSN was also head of the carrier on hunter killer duties for part or all of the voyage

But one thing is for sure, USN probably and most likely has picked up the acoustic signature of the Liaoning, either on this voyage or on any of the ones before this, this data has likely been passed to USN naval intelligence which in turn has been shared with USN SSN fleet and every time the Liaoning is sailing a USN SSN hunter killer is likely tracking its movements and course

As a matter of fact I am pretty sure USN has the acoustic signature of all major PLAN vessels

Question really is, did the Chinese know about it and if they did what they did!?

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Of course they do. In fact not just China's but USN probably has the acoustic signatures of probably 99% of ALL naval vessels sailing in the high seas today. I assume Liaoning is probably a pretty noisy ship like most carriers are so acoustic signatures for these type of ships are probably not something that can be guard against. I'm pretty sure US CVNs' acoustic signatures are probably known to everyone as well but in real practical terms knowing about it is meaningless if you can't do much about it. At best it allows identification of said vessel and that's it.

andyhugfan said:

The WS-10A will never put out 33000 pounds of thrust. At max 30000. Do you have a source for that figure Jeff?

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Andy, I used the figures popeye posted in this response:

Popeye's earlier post

...where he compared the US Navy R/A-5C Vigilante to the J-15.

But I believe the original source may be Aviata.net, here:



I have to admit that I think the number is high.

plawolf said:

OTOH, with the J15, they could pull experienced J11 pilots with years of operational experience on Flankers and put them in a J15 with extremely similar handling, performance and maybe even the same cockpit layout as the latest J11Bs, and have them go straight into carrier conversion training with only minimal training needed to get used to flying the new J15s.

That could have saved them 1-2 years in terms of pilot training.

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Agreed.

plawolf said:

Now, a carrier J10B would be amazing and can share the same engine as the J15 to ease logistics, but I'm not sure about the single engined nature of the J10 for carrier ops.

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Well, one thing the US Navy has proved over the years, and with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cats and traps with them, is that single engine aircraft work just fine off of carriers.

The F-8 Crusader, the A-4 Skyhawk, the A-7 Corsair were all very successful carrier aircraft that worked for decades off of US carriers and they all had a single engine. The F-35C, which will be a huge addition to, and future 5th gen aircraft for the US Navy is a single engine aircraft.

plawolf said:

...the J31 with its twin engines and 5th gen credentials, it is certainly a better choice than the J10 for carrier ops. The fly in that ointment is the fact that SAC also makes it, and I'm not sure the PLANAF is keen to put all their carrier fighter eggs in that one basket.

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Agreed on both counts. The J-31, if made operational, would be an excellent choice...but at the same time, using the exact same manufacturer for both aircraft is also a risk.

However, given the nature of the PRC government's tie into the manufacturers and ability to ensure their viability, that particular risk could probably be mitigated if there were such problems.

Jeff Head said:

Agreed.

Well, one thing the US Navy has proved over the years, and with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cats and traps with them, is that single engine aircraft work just fine off of carriers.

The F-8 Crusader, the A-4 Skyhawk, the A-7 Corsair were all very successful carrier aircraft that worked for decades off of US carriers and they all had a single engine. The F-35C, which will be a huge addition to, and future 5th gen aircraft for the US Navy is a single engine aircraft.

Agreed on both counts. The J-31, if made operational, would be an excellent choice...but at the same time, using the exact same manufacturer for both aircraft is also a risk.

However, given the nature of the PRC government's tie into the manufacturers and ability to ensure their viability, that particular risk could probably be mitigated if there were such problems.

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Agreed.. and let's not forget that since the retirement of the Tomcat pretty much all of USN's naval strike fighters/bombers have been a McD-D/Boeing product as well and will continue to be so until the F-35 starts going into the fleet in significant numbers and then pretty soon it'll all be Lockheed's shindig. LOL

SAC seems to know what they're doing and by all accounts a reasonably stable and reliable company.. not to mention with huge government backing like you said. I see minimal risk for PLAN if they decide to go all SAC especially if they have a good reliable aircraft and more importantly a good reliable indigenous engine to go with them but jet engines is not inherently a SAC problem.

What China needs is a company like GE Aircraft Engines and/or Pratt and Whitney but I think we all know they are working really hard on that.

kwaigonegin said:

Of course they do. In fact not just China's but USN probably has the acoustic signatures of probably 99% of ALL naval vessels sailing in the high seas today. I assume Liaoning is probably a pretty noisy ship like most carriers are so acoustic signatures for these type of ships are probably not something that can be guard against. I'm pretty sure US CVNs' acoustic signatures are probably known to everyone as well but in real practical terms knowing about it is meaningless if you can't do much about it. At best it allows identification of said vessel and that's it.

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I guess USN is glad they are collecting intel on Liaoning and not as it once was the Varyag, when the Kiev Class was launched and commissioned in the late 1970s it sent shock waves through the British and American navy's, this 40,000 ton Soviet war machine was the most feared navy vessal in the Soviet navy

The Kiev Class was based with the Northern Fleet and Tracking this ships was so important that the Royal Navy sent its nuclear submarine HMS Swiftsure to collect the acoustic signatures and report back, the North Fleet was out in force but a long story short HMS Swiftsure tracked all acoustic signatures and one was not recognised it had to be the Kiev, 10,000 m out and the HMS Swiftsure slowly tailed and gently moved forward 1 knot at a time coming with only 12 feet within the Kiev, the Royal Navy crews were so skill full and they sat underneith the Kiev for hours and photographed its propellers and under surface, this was no chance they knew exactly what they were doing, after collecting what they wanted they slowly slipped away and returned home the whole time they were never tracked or detected by any of the Soviet escorts

The most power ship in the Soviet navy had just been compromised, detected and tracked by the Royal Navy

This info was only declassified few years back

When word got out that two carriers Admiral Kuznetsov were under construction similar fears grew and even bigger one was in the pipeline, Ulyanovsk Class shame Soviet Union was no more or should I say glad it was no more they were on the verge of giving the NATO forces a hell of a run

asif iqbal said:

I guess USN is glad they are collecting intel on Liaoning and not as it once was the Varyag, when the Kiev Class was launched and commissioned in the late 1970s it sent shock waves through the British and American navy's, this 40,000 ton Soviet war machine was the most feared navy vessal in the Soviet navy

The Kiev Class was based with the Northern Fleet and Tracking this ships was so important that the Royal Navy sent its nuclear submarine HMS Swiftsure to collect the acoustic signatures and report back, the North Fleet was out in force but a long story short HMS Swiftsure tracked all acoustic signatures and one was not recognised it had to be the Kiev, 10,000 m out and the HMS Swiftsure slowly tailed and gently moved forward 1 knot at a time coming with only 12 feet within the Kiev, the Royal Navy crews were so skill full and they sat underneith the Kiev for hours and photographed its propellers and under surface, this was no chance they knew exactly what they were doing, after collecting what they wanted they slowly slipped away and returned home the whole time they were never tracked or detected by any of the Soviet escorts

The most power ship in the Soviet navy had just been compromised, detected and tracked by the Royal Navy

This info was only declassified few years back

When word got out that two carriers Admiral Kuznetsov were under construction similar fears grew and even bigger one was in the pipeline, Ulyanovsk Class shame Soviet Union was no more or should I say glad it was no more they were on the verge of giving the NATO forces a hell of a run

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I never understood why NATO was so fearful of Kiev.
Its airwing capability is less than that of Invincible class harrier carriers and its defensive weapons were all existing weapon systems.

i.e. said:

I never understood why NATO was so fearful of Kiev.
Its airwing capability is less than that of Invincible class harrier carriers and its defensive weapons were all existing weapon systems.

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Reason was simple it was the first large Soviet warship which could lift fighters and it was very fast and Western SSN had to really give chase to catch this vessal

In addition it carried 8 massive cruise missiles capable of nuclear warhead, from 18 hours of sailing it could reach targets of Western Europe

Despite the huge deterrence the USN put up it didn't stop the Soviets from invading Hungry, Czechoslovakia and later Afghanistan adding Cuban crisis, Berlin Crisis plus Korean war and Vietnam war

With Kiev Class Soviets would bring even more firepower to the table huge threat

i.e. said:

I never understood why NATO was so fearful of Kiev.
Its airwing capability is less than that of Invincible class harrier carriers and its defensive weapons were all existing weapon systems.

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IMHO, and looking back as one who lived through their entire introduction and use, NATO at first, was not sure of all of the Kiev's class capabilities.

It was clearly a heavily armed carrier that carried VTOL jet fighters on it. At that point the US and NATO were not really aware of what the YAKs capabilites were. It was something the USSR had not had befoe, and it was clear they were going to build several of them

It was also very fast and could get around at a speed and with an endurance (it was felt at the time) similar to a US carriers. So they were going to have a hard time keeping track of them.

Finally, it was clearly well armed, particularly for hunter killer duties against submarines. It was clear that the USSR was going to deploy them with other USSR vessels to find and attack NATO submarines. The US and UK remembered how well those kind of tatics had worked against the Nazis submarine force in the war in the Atlantic and were not happy about the prospects that those same would be used against NATO's submarine force.

As it turns out, like several other Soviet other systems, the Bear's fearsome weapons were not as capable as intially thought. The YAKs were a farce. The ships did not have as great an endurance as thought, and the Soviet submarine sensor systems were not as strong as the wests. But none of that was apparent when the Kievs came out.

To this day they are impressive looking vessels...and they are large vessels that at least the last of which was capable of being repurposed.

The Vikramaditya, though it too has weaknesses as a STOBAR carrier, is going to be a more powerful vessel and effective carrier system in its intended area of operation than the GOrshkov was in its.

Just as...to keep this on topic...I believe the Liaoning will be a far more effective STOBAR carrier for the PLAN's intended use, than the Varyag would have been for the Russian's intended use. The PLAN had repurposed the Varyag into the Liaoning, not only with an improved strike fighter (IMHO), but also with an improved and better overall purpose.

The reasons why i believe that the Liaoning will be more effective than the Admiral Kuznetsov is:

1. The Liaoning is more streamlined and modern then the Admiral Kuznetsov by removing its weapons and by increasing the automation and digitization of the ship.

2. The J-15 is a far more modern and multi-role fighter than the SU-33.

3. The PLAN will operate her with American procedures and methods.

4. Better living conditions on board the ship will lead to higher morale amongst the crew.

Things could change for the better for the Admiral Kuznetsov once it has her full complement of MiG-29K's and when or if she has her refit in the future.