PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Everything depends on who controls the media in Taiwan. China could grow 3-4 more times, but if the people in Taiwan don't get the message, or get the skewed message thanks to US CIA propaganda, it wouldn't matter at all, and the current mindset would continue. Also, you forgot that it's not only about the money but about ideology as well. People in Taiwan are already very deep under the Western "freedom" democracy cool-aid propaganda train. They will say: "Yes, mainland China got richer, but at what cost?", or some similar bullshit, like the other people in the West basically think in the big picture. Anyways, if the US were to be "praised" for something, it is their media and propaganda dominance, also intelligence soft operations. I feel like the only way for China to change the status quo in Taiwan now, would be with practical action (like it did in Hong Kong at the end of the day, but more extreme), otherwise, there is no hope. Btw, If someone can post some kind of study regarding the state of the media in Taiwan (ownership, overall bias, rhetoric, etc...), I would appreciate it, I haven't managed to find anything like this online yet.

DPP started banning pro-mainland media after one of the richest Taiwanese, a snack food mogul, started to buy more media assets and openly broadcasting and publishing (in his newspapers) pro-unification articles. His outlets also routinely played up the capabilities of the PLA.

And what happened in the meantime? Not only did Taiwan not get closer to the mainland, but it got the most distant in history, with DPP stronger than ever, separatistic, pro-West, anti-CCP mainland, rhetoric stronger than ever, etc.

Note that DPP was in power during the 2000’s as well before Xi. At this time DPP was very powerful and independence feelings were very high and hopeful. Since the mainland economy was not as strong, the distance was quite great, there were no direct travel links for example (came mid-2000’s, regular flights only late 2000’s). Chinese military capabilities were still relying a lot on Russian imports. ROC armed forces were arguably qualitatively superior to the PLA (for example, all ROCAF aircraft were equipped with active radar BVRAAM, while only Su-30 and some Su-27 had R-VV-AE).

It was recently reported that Dick Chaney supported then “president” Chen Shui Bian’s desire to declare independence. However, Bush Jr. personally did not support it, and the non-China hawks in his administration wanted Chinese support on the War on Terror. They did not want to divert any resources towards Taiwan.

The independence/pro-west movement is vocal, but I think the majority of people just want to be left alone. If you consider that 25% of the voting population did not cast any ballot, then DPP has a weaker plurality in reality.

This was the similar case in HK where the pro-west factions claimed that the “silent majority” was mainland propaganda, but the collapse of their riots showed that such a thing was real, and their support was not as popular as they believed.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator

Xi Tells Biden to His Face: China WILL Take Taiwan! How Did We Get Here?​

by Paul Lewandowski (Combat Veteran Reacts)

"At a recent meeting Chinese president Xi Jinping told US president Biden to his face that China is going to be invading Taiwan. Now

how do you get to this point where you just tell the leader of the Free World that you are going to be annexing another country? Well

it's not as crazy as you think and frankly the craziness might have just started with the United States. I'm Paul; US Army Combat veteran.

Let's break down exactly what's going on here..."





Business Insider Article:

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"Chinese leader Xi Jinping told President Joe Biden that China intended to take control of Taiwan in a face-to-face meeting last month,
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The report, citing three former and current US officials, said that the remarks were made during a meeting on the fringes of the Apec
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While official readouts of the meeting emphasized the common ground the leaders found on issues such as the climate crisis, the report indicated that long-standing tensions over the de facto autonomy of Taiwan also surfaced.

Xi bluntly asserted the Chinese right to rule Taiwan and said it would prefer to take it peacefully not by force, according to NBC.
The Chinese leader reportedly denied US intelligence claims that China
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saying the timing had not been decided..."

I’m confused. Didn’t MSM make a huge deal out of the fact that Xi promised that there is no plan for AR by 2027?
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is no reason for China to tolerate Western ISR support to rebel forces.
Realistically speaking, the US&LC have been providing ISR support to the rebel forces on Taiwan since the 1940s. And contrary to popular understanding, the Chinese Civil War is still ongoing, even today. We just got a by-default (默认) ceasefire across both sides of the strait.

Defeating the Hegemon means the rebel will surrender, even if PLA doesn’t land any troops on the island.
Me having a knife and an enemy ≠ I must get into a knifefight with the enemy in order to bring down the enemy - Especially when there are other ways to be explored.
 
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sr338

New Member
Registered Member
Opinion from the Global Times about Lindsey Graham's threat to China on the Taiwan issue.
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Lindsey Graham, perhaps one of the most vile of the US hawks had basically telegraphed to everyone how the US intends to play its part in a Taiwan conflict. This kinda supports my suspicion, which is that the US does not intend to fight with China directly over Taiwan. These chicken hawks want a Taiwan conflict, but not WWIII. A Taiwan conflict would give the them the excuse carry out their 2 main agendas for China which is:

1) To throw their "sanctions from hell" at China to hopefully wreck the Chinese economy, steal Chinese assets on Western soils, and wipe out US debt with China. The sanctions from hell could also include soft blockade measures on China. They ultimately want to collapse the Chinese economy, and by extension, the Chinese government.

2) To have Taiwan fight and die on America's behalf to weaken China. They want to supply Taiwan with sufficient weapons, ammunition, money, and intelligence to hurt the PLA as much as possible. They have been wargaming, counting on a reckless amphibious invasion by the PLA where the Taiwanese can shoot at them at will, and inflict massive losses to the PLA. They assume that the PLA have some idiotic timeline to invade Taiwan because of some political agenda demanded by Xi Jinping and the "evil CCP". Basically, the Americans hope that Taiwan can defeat the PLA in the Taiwan Straits, thanks to American Wunderwaffes and intelligence. The objective is to inflict as much damage as possible to the PLA without costing any American servicemen lives.

Off course there are the other secondary bonuses the US wishes to get from a Taiwan conflict. Such as:
1) Loss of innocence for China.
2) Loss of prestige for China.
3) Being able to turn countries against China, especially the Global South nations.
4) Have China bogged down in a war, thereby disrupting its economy.
5) A big bonanza for US defense firms.

What if China ends up winning the Taiwan conflict? Well the US would just simply abandon Taiwan and make China pay the highest price possible before the inevitable reunification. There is no formal defense treaty between the island of Taiwan and the US. Its only between the ROC and the US and that expired in 1979. So there is no obligation for the US to "defend Taiwan" from mainland China. The US, for all their tough talk does not want WWIII with China or Russia. The American elites do want war with China and Russia, but they want someone else to commit to that war.
There is a simple solution to this, blocakde is an act of war; start bombing US bases and push the USA out of the WestPac.
US is the opponent, Taiwan is just a pawn. Once the opponent is defeated, all the US vassals in Asian will be our.
China can make 3-4 USN in a year, China vs US will be reverse Pacific War. Once the US is beaten on to the ground, no one will take their sanctions seriously.

Face the opponent instead of the pawn
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Realistically speaking, the US&LC have been providing ISR support to the rebel forces on Taiwan since the 1940s. And contrary to popular understanding, the Chinese Civil War is still ongoing, even today. We just got a by-default (默认) ceasefire across both sides of the strait.
That's at peace time, and China was too weak to take on the US.

Make no mistake, Western ISR will cost PLA lives and shouldn't be tolerated.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
There is no worry about US EW harassing military operation. China can do grey zone retaliation by supporting against their interest elsewhere. For example, providing support to regional power to challenge American base across the world. It would be a serious threat. On other hands, US EW cannot swing the fight on Taiwan very much. This is a profitable trade.

Only when greyzone escalation option exhaust and China is losing should China gamble shooting.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
"Do a pearl harbour" has a lot of political connotations that are better left ignored.

On the contrary. Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour is the only piece of data that we have which can plausibly inform a hypothetical conflict with the US over Taiwan.

Japanese strategy is useful because it was rational.

It seems irrational only in hindsight and under influence of American propaganda delegitmising Japanese regime which is ahistorical.

Japan wasn't the only expansionist power in the region and their claims to expansion were no different than those of the others (USSR, US as well as Britain, France. Netherlands etc).

In 1940 Japanese Empire had total population of 151,5 million of which:
  • Japan - 73,1m
  • Korea - 24,3m
  • Taiwan - 5,8m
  • Mengjiang - 5,5m
  • Kwantung - 1,3m
  • Manchukuo - 41,1m
but the entire resource base was outside of Japan proper which had 50% of total population and 100% of ethnic population.

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And let's not forget that China was a theater of war between three parties - USSR supporting CPC, USA supporting ROC and Japan supporting its Empire. China would inevitably end up - in part of entirety - on one of these sides. The US was actively supporting ROC and the oil embargo against Japan was intended to force Japan out of China. USSR was supporting communist movements in all of Asia. Unlike in Europe where WW1 resolved the expasionist conflict the economic crisis was responsible for return to war in East Asia WW1 did not happen, so the invasion of China in the 1930s and WW2 was its equivalent and should be viewed in analogous terms - like European WW1 and not WW2. It was a zero-sum game.

The US and USSR had similar population but with the resource base within their own territory. Japan had to expand to capture resource base if it was to compete successfully. Most importantly whenever you cite the size of "industry" in the US remember that it includes the dominant position in oil production which the US held globally until 1960.

US having 40% of world's industrial production before WW2 meant that e.g. in 1937 (source: League of Nations)

countrysteel production (m tonnes)share of global %oil production (m tonnes)share of global %
US51,438172,961,8
USSR17,713,127,89,9
Germany19,314,30,5-
UK13,19,80-
Japan5,84,30,3-
world135100279,9100

USSR, and not the US, was the primary threat to Japanese influence in the region but the battles of Khalkin-gol demonstrated that Japan had no viable option in direct conflict against the USSR which would be a land war so it was forced to turn against the US where in a maritime conflict it had short-term options as an established naval power - third after US and Britain in the naval treaties.

Another reason was the oil in the Dutch and British possession in SEA which in 1937 was approx. 9m tonnes - not much, but more than all of Europe w/o USSR. It was the fuel Japan needed to industrialise further.

In 1941 Japan had no political alternatives other than war against the US or collapse of the empire in China and Korea under both US and Soviet pressure.

That is why Yamamoto planned the attack despite being aware of the long-term prospects of industrial war against the US. The difference of rhetoric of the Japanese leadership only reflects their internal political stances and ideological attitudes to the inevitability of war, not their decision-making which was largely unanimous in strategic terms.

Japan attacked Pearl Harbour not because it wanted to eliminate a third party that may intervene but because it was planning to go to war with the US and its allies and decided that a pre-emptive attack is a better than giving up the initiative and ability to respond.

Empire of Japan by 1939
1280px-Pacific_Area_-_The_Imperial_Powers_1939_-_Map.svg.png


Specifically the Philippines were from until 1946 an unincorporated territory of the United States which means that Japan could not execute its strategic plan of catpuring the entire Malay archipelago without attacking the US.

All of these operations were dependent on maritime transportation so USN had to be neutralised.

Empire of Japan by 1942
640px-Japanese_expansion_april_1942.svg.png


It was a correct assessment. The defeat at Midway in June 1942 was a stroke of luck for the US that makes Japanese campaign seem reckless. If it was inconclusive like Battle of the Coral Sea it would slow down campaigns in Southern Pacific. If instead the US lost the carrier fleet it would delay any offensive operations to early 1944 as first five Essex CVs were commissioned in 12/42, 4/43, 8/43, 11/43 and 1/44 and the war in the Pacific would end very differently with USSR having the decisive move in 1945 likely leading to capture of all of Korea and early communist victory in China.

Regardless of how you personally view the Taiwan conflict the formal claim of China to Taiwan is one of national reunification within borders recognised by both PRC and ROC while all Japanese claims were openly expansionist and unilateral openly, because Japan at the time was competing with formal British, French, Dutch, American and Russian/Soviet empires. And note that while Japan reasoned like European colonial empires it used modernist justification of "Asia for Asians" that matched US and Soviet rhetoric of self-determination.

Japan attacked US territory (Pearl Harbour) because it wanted to capture US territory and of its allies. Why would China attack the US to solve its internal conflict?
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
What he is saying, is that if the PLA does not take the opportunity to carry out a comprehensive first strike with strategic initiative to target key staging areas of US military power in the region, then it offers the US to redeploy and surge and harden its positions in the western pacific to a degree which may result in the PLA and China overall losing a conflict over Taiwan and/or the western pacific at large.

Patchwork wrote a series of posts relating to this in the past on Reddit which has been copied over a few times on other places. I don't have the text, but others might.

It's Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all over again but those are no longer unknown unknowns. Twenty years after the lesson should have been learned you are all making the very same error, just from the other direction.

Correct understanding of the internal political dynamic in America is fundamental to correct choice of strategy in a war against America. You always choose the strategy that will best deprive the enemy of the will to fight which is the primary and fundamental resource in any conflict.

American society is deeply polarised because of the nature of American political system and culture that already threatens to rip the country apart. The important factor is that there is no "one America" but increasingly it's "two Americas", similarly to the antebellum era. The political dynamic in America is more like a low-intensity civil war than political process in a mature democracy. It only persists as a coherent political organism because due to geography USA lacks predators in its habitat.

In the US everything is increasingly perceived in partisan terms, including foreign policy, which is very visible in how the conflict with Russia is being resolved. Democrats oppose Republican wars o partisan basis. Republicans oppose Democrat wars on partisan basis. Only "American wars" receive bipartisan support but the legacy of GWoT is that Americans have difficulty imagining such war, and default to partisan logic.

Consider Russia and Ukraine:

US aid is a fraction of the total cost of Iraq and Afghanistan wars, it objectively brought measurably greater benefits to US economic and political power (e.g. strengthening of USD, shifts in energy markets, realigning of fractured alliances in Europe). It was arguably the greatest strategic success for the US since Gulf War that benefits both partie's constituents and yet the American public still views the war in partisan terms and have opposed and polarised views on it which limits what DC can do.

China attacking US military assets guarantees a bipartisan war. Therefore it is of utmost importance that China does nothing that could unify the US around external threats.

Furthermore:

The US military is physically incapable of committing to a Taiwan scenario that turns into full-scale war. There is a significant effort to up-arm with orders for 2024-2026 and plans to expand production of key munitions beyond that but that only ensures that US forces will have the ability to shoot back if deployed. PLA knows how to count cells and missiles.

Warfare is a game of probabilities which is why at a fundamental level the traditional overmatch of 3:1 at a minimum is always pursued. It's simply too easy to lose 1 by accident when you start with 2:1 and end up in 1:1 scenario which can go each way. With 3:1 you can absorb losses and retain advantage. And naturally more is better. See Ukraine for reference.

The US has global commitments which underpin their economic model which underpins the political stability of the country. I assume that in SDF of all places those don't require elaboration. All of those commitments consume resources. A lot of them.

But even if we assume that all of USN is moved to WestPac then - CVN and SSN excluded - it provides for 2:1 advantage and only combined with Japan it reaches 3:1. China has also the benefit of landmass for air power projection while CVNs have inherent hard limitations and vulnerabilities and land is scarce for USAF. SSNs are an asset that is largely wasted on coastal sieges.

As for Taiwan, in may of 2022 I wrote a post detailing a hypothetical scenario which in my view solves the issue of external intervention and requires minimal force deployment in minimal amount of time.


Instead of the absurd notion that PLA has to land on western coast and capture dense urban areas and political centres by force I propose that it captures the sparsely populated eastern coast, deploys coastal and air defenses, puts a fleet to the sea to protect the approach zones, sticks the symbolic flag and simply declares the conflict over. The rest will be sorting out the political details to sell the reunification as matching the framework of China's diplomatic positions globally.

03_Taiwan key locations.jpg

The primary beachhead is the southermost peninsula with ~100k population and the two islands to the east. Once the beachhead is captured it can deploy a large number of troops along the roads to support other landing zones on the east coast. It's mostly empty areas.
02_Taiwan_population.jpg

This is a viable operation that makes much more sense than whatever the think-tanks come up with. And it can in theory be done right now. Later is better, but it is possible now.

Once that happens ROC is put effectively under siege and US and Japan have to physically break through PLA's defenses to relieve ROC which by that time will either be in a state of collapse or will be struggling to counter PLA offensive because to do so will require leaving the west undefended (and commit to assault across narrow mountain passes and coastal strips with enemy air superiority). In effect the USN and JMSDF will have to perform amphibious landings, then capture and hold the territory of an island with logistics dependent on sea and air lines of communication against the entire military potential of a peer opponent concentrated in the theater.

It has never been done because it can't be done. And even if it could be done then the losses would be excessive and which of the two belligerents is better capable of reconstituting its force - US to maintain control of Taiwan across the Pacific or China to recapture an island 200 km off its coast?

This scenario is basic geography which is why the only way to prevent it is to deploy sufficient naval force in the theater to pre-empt PLA operation and the US can't afford it while China can because to counter US fleets they barely need to leave the port.

The "hardened positions" that our friend Patchwork imagines exists only in his imagination because while he extatically commits himself to long essays filled with tactical acronyms he never does the most important thing that any competent military planner does before he plans any operation: calculating the logistical footprint of sustaining an active force capable of achieving decisive overmatch against PLA in Taiwan theater of operations that can be sustained indefinitely in case of no resolution to the conflict.

I'll leave that exercise to the reader. It will be eye-opening and will demonstrate why amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics.

US was thrown out of WestPac by Japan in 1941/42 but returned with vengeance two years later because of logistics - the crippling of Japanese logistics by US submarines and the simultaneous reestablishing of expanded US logistics in the theatre.

Unless you know how to magically shift tectonic plates to make the first island chain equidistant from both China and the US this conflict has only one inevitable solution. Crack your fortune cookie if you need a hint as to what it is.

There is no war over Taiwan because China has 25 years to reclaim it peacefully and US knows it will lose that war because of fundamentals. Unless a radical element enters the equation (like Trump or someone similar) it's all posturing for domestic audiences over a done deal.

Learn to read the room you guys. Almost all the moves that matter have been done already. The battle has been fought. Now its counting the casualties on both sides. It's like that scene from Hero where Nameless and Sky fight it out in their mind. Nobody risks a war which can disrupt profitable trade. Those that point to WW1 as counter-example forget that when it started it was meant to be over before Christmas and everyone was surprised when it was, five Christmases later.

And on that note: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone!
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
On the contrary. Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour is the only piece of data that we have which can plausibly inform a hypothetical conflict with the US over Taiwan.

Japanese strategy is useful because it was rational.

It seems irrational only in hindsight and under influence of American propaganda delegitmising Japanese regime which is ahistorical.
-removed for word count.

Regardless of how you personally view the Taiwan conflict the formal claim of China to Taiwan is one of national reunification within borders recognised by both PRC and ROC while all Japanese claims were openly expansionist and unilateral openly, because Japan at the time was competing with formal British, French, Dutch, American and Russian/Soviet empires. And note that while Japan reasoned like European colonial empires it used modernist justification of "Asia for Asians" that matched US and Soviet rhetoric of self-determination.

Japan attacked US territory (Pearl Harbour) because it wanted to capture US territory and of its allies. Why would China attack the US to solve its internal conflict?

I don't disagree with what you've written, but you've also entirely missed the point of what I wrote in reply to TK3600.

As for "Why would China attack the US to solve its internal conflict", I'll address that below in the reply to your other post.

It's Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all over again but those are no longer unknown unknowns. Twenty years after the lesson should have been learned you are all making the very same error, just from the other direction.
-removed for word count-

I'll leave that exercise to the reader. It will be eye-opening and will demonstrate why amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics.

US was thrown out of WestPac by Japan in 1941/42 but returned with vengeance two years later because of logistics - the crippling of Japanese logistics by US submarines and the simultaneous reestablishing of expanded US logistics in the theatre.

Unless you know how to magically shift tectonic plates to make the first island chain equidistant from both China and the US this conflict has only one inevitable solution. Crack your fortune cookie if you need a hint as to what it is.

There is no war over Taiwan because China has 25 years to reclaim it peacefully and US knows it will lose that war because of fundamentals. Unless a radical element enters the equation (like Trump or someone similar) it's all posturing for domestic audiences over a done deal.

Learn to read the room you guys. Almost all the moves that matter have been done already. The battle has been fought. Now its counting the casualties on both sides. It's like that scene from Hero where Nameless and Sky fight it out in their mind. Nobody risks a war which can disrupt profitable trade. Those that point to WW1 as counter-example forget that when it started it was meant to be over before Christmas and everyone was surprised when it was, five Christmases later.

And on that note: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone!

In your proposed strategy of landing on the eastern and southern sides, planting a flag, and calling the war over, will still require a comprehensive PLA bombardment and seizure of air and sea control over and around Taiwan proper. Deploying a force onto the eastern side and southern sides will still need the massive air, missile bombardment and conducting an amphibious-air landing operation on the eastern and southern sides -- keeping in mind the eastern side of the island itself is much less conducive to a conventional amphibious operation, while it also opens up PLA ships to more easy monitoring and/or interdiction from the US/Japan.

I'm not inherently against your suggestion, but it does not seem particularly different form the strategy that has been discussed and which Patchwork described as likely -- i.e.: any sort of landing operation, no matter the location or scale, will ultimately still require the PLA to attain sea and air control over Taiwan and its immediate periphery, which will require a large scale and intense preceding bombardement campaign, with corresponding EA/EA, SEAD/DEAD, maritime interdiction etc.
Furthermore, during the landing/amphibious assault phase of the operation (what you describe as "The primary beachhead is the southermost peninsula with ~100k population and the two islands to the east. Once the beachhead is captured it can deploy a large number of troops along the roads to support other landing zones on the east coast. It's mostly empty areas.") -- even if the PLA and PRC declares the conflict as "over," so long as combat operations on the island continue and it is not objectively pacified, then the PLA and PRC will need to continue to guard and reinforce its bridgeheads and continue pouring in logistics, support and conducting air and naval fires operations in support of ground operations.


This is where the US factor must be considered, because if the US can use this time to concentrate and redeploy global forces to reinforce and harden its regional bases in the western pacific, and if it wants to intervene in the Taiwan conflict that the PLA is still waging on the ground (which requires substantial air, naval support), then they can do so at a time and position and strength of its choosing.

I do not recall the exact phrasing, but Patchwork's writeup suggested that if it was geopolitically assessed that the US would not intervene in a Taiwan conflict, then the PLA would likely not conduct an initial strike against regional US bases/staging areas when it starts its Taiwan bombardment.
However, if it is judged that US intervention is likely/inevitable, then regional US bases/staging areas would also be struck when they start its Taiwan bombardment.

Both of the above options are considered of course with the realization that US political will to engage in such a war would obviously be strengthened if the PLA were to conduct the initial strike (even if it was preceded by substantial public warnings, signaling before hand).


Also, don't be so snide. Patchwork's contributions were among the most valuable this forum has had for a long time, and his writeups are ultimately filled with valuable information. I will not speak for him, but yes logistics, supply, and basing and readiness are all things he has considered as well. If you are unable to actually recall and read the full variety of his posts on here and other places (because he had deliberately deleted all of them), I would advise you to not pass judgement.
At the very least, I don't think you are one to complain about "long essays".
 
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