PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I asked this before but never got an answer. What about the offensive deployment of naval mines East of Taiwan? What are China's capabilities in this strategy?
Afaik it isn't that well understood, as its a rather secretive topic. We know however that mines are a big part of China's defense strategy and that many aerial and seagoing minelaying platforms exist, but there's almost certainly types of mines that aren't publicly revealed.

As part of the first island chain strategy, where a defensive line is established to prevent US forces from operating, mines can be spammed in all the choke points leading into the island chain.

A lot of PLA ships will be enforcing lockdown in the country's easternmost coast during a high threat scenario. Mining in that area could be counterproductive, sure, there's intelligent mines, but why use an intelligent mine when shooting from a frigate or corvette can do the same job?
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
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Even anti-China taiwan independence hawks no longer believe US can win a conventional war or deter it. So, now they are advocating tactical nukes to be deployed to Taiwan.

Except China can also and probably already is developing tactical nukes to deter US from using it to blackmail China. So, the next logical step is to threaten strategic nukes, but here again China is already working to blunt any nuke blackmail.

What will the China hawks propose next? I'm wondering
 

Biscuits

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Even anti-China taiwan independence hawks no longer believe US can win a conventional war or deter it. So, now they are advocating tactical nukes to be deployed to Taiwan.

Except China can also and probably already is developing tactical nukes to deter US from using it to blackmail China. So, the next logical step is to threaten strategic nukes, but here again China is already working to blunt any nuke blackmail.

What will the China hawks propose next? I'm wondering
You know internationally speaking, Taiwan, being core territory of the PRC, it's not something China would prefer at all, but they have the full right to test nuclear weapons on the island.

If a grave threat towards the whole country, such as by terrorists acquiring WMD, it would be in the absolute worst case justified to the government and public to detonate strategic nuclear warheads to preemptively disarm and exterminate WMD armed terrorists.

For that reason, better to work on both sides of the straits not to introduce WMDs into the civil war.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I asked this before but never got an answer. What about the offensive deployment of naval mines East of Taiwan? What are China's capabilities in this strategy?

Realistically, any enemy surface ships approaching Taiwan would be detected and attacked long before they could reach a Taiwanese port. And even if they did, the ship would be at a known stationary location and it wouldn't be long before it was spotted and again attacked.

As for submarines, I don't see enemy submarines really needing to approach the coastal waters off Eastern Taiwan.

Plus the waters east of Taiwan drop off rapidly into deep waters, so it would be difficult, if not impossible for China to effectively deploy naval mines.

But the Chinese military deploying mines outside ports such as Okinawa or Guam would be very useful. Resupply ships have no choice but to head to those ports.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
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Even anti-China taiwan independence hawks no longer believe US can win a conventional war or deter it. So, now they are advocating tactical nukes to be deployed to Taiwan.

Except China can also and probably already is developing tactical nukes to deter US from using it to blackmail China. So, the next logical step is to threaten strategic nukes, but here again China is already working to blunt any nuke blackmail.

What will the China hawks propose next? I'm wondering

China has been very clear that US/Taiwanese nukes in Taiwan will trigger a war.

And a thought occurs to me.
Chinese companies (such as DJI) produce about 800K small drones per month.

In the event of an actual US-China war, I expect 400K small drones would be more than enough for China. So China could easily supply Russia and/or the Middle east to open up new fronts against the USA.

As per the Ukraine experience, it looks like 3 drones are required to hit a target.

So if 200K were sent to the Middle East for use against Israel, along with supporting Chinese EW equipment, that would be another 66K targets per month against Israel. After some months, with just this weapon system, you're looking at the entire mobilised Israel military potentially being decimated.

Such a course of action would be very popular in the Muslim world and most of the Global South, which collectively comprise 85% of global population and 60% of global economic activity.

EDIT. And the reason for this is because Israel is a nasty expansionist colonial settler society.

You would think the Zionist Israel lobbyists in the US would be smart enough to recognise this possibility, and for them to furiously lobby against deteriorating US-China relations and provocative US actions such as the Pelosi episode last year.

I've just used small drones as an example, but we could say the same for many other munitions. For example, there are 1.5 Million motorcycle engines made in China every month, which should be suitable engines for Shaheed cruise missiles.

And suppose China started supplying Russia with munitions? We probably would be looking at a swift collapse of Ukraine.
 
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Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
It seems that the whole world is waking up to the paper tiger of the US's so-called global military dominance now that they can't (or don't have the courage) to attack/defeat Houthis after everything they've been doing in the Red Sea (many times in the past promised to never in million years allow those important waterways to be blocked with their space-shuttle, ultra-powerful navy, by anyone in the region). If they can't even deal with and pressure Houthis, which is basically a semi-state actor, or ethnic group, imagine dealing with Iran, and then imagine dealing with China right on its shores, who have way more advanced missiles and drones, of all kinds, and the ability to produce them in the quantity that the US can't even fathom. The so-called US global military dominance is an overhyped myth. It seems objective that any decently sized country or a group with strong morale and some basic military technological capability can defeat the US or at least force it to rethink attacking them first.

That's called blunting, China doesn't need nuclear-powered submarines, aircraft carriers, and bombers (that's why it's probably lagging in those areas but already leading the US in various missiles and drone technology) when it's fighting right on its shores, it can use way simpler systems in great quantities to win (like Houthis but on steroids). The US is at a disadvantage, it has to cross the entire Pacific to get to Taiwan, China is already there, with the strongest A2AD on the planet. And to be honest it's debatable how much of the general US Navy can even arrive there in one piece and stay successfully. Not to mention the logistics and supply of continued, prolonged warfare in that kind of environment. We've seen pictures of how rusted and in what state are some of their ships currently due to tremendous over-use and the inability of the US defense industry to replenish them for decades (all of a sudden they will manage to start massively fixing their ships in that kind of environment after the war damage starts - doubt it).

After the war starts, how will they be maintained in that kind of environment for the US? US bases in the region are gone within the first few weeks, they are non-factors. And let's say their ships arrive all in one piece magically, but what will happen when they lose all of their firepower in the first few weeks of the war, and the US feather-weight industrial complex fails to replenish them effectively because its weakness and decades-long atrophy, for this deindustrialized, service-based joke of a country? Not only do they barely produce any kind of steel, but their chemical industry is weaker too. Yes, they currently have more tonnage than China in various main naval ship classes (but not technological advantages anymore), but how much of it will be destroyed and decapitated due to geographical disadvantage and how many new military instruments (systems, explosives, steel) will China manage to create once this entire industrial hyperpower starts the war economy engine fully in the few months after the war starts out? All of a sudden you will have a totally reversed situation, reverse numbers, and US humiliation and loss.

The US MIC is milking their government dry, where did you see such a de-industrialized nation being any kind of global military threat in the history of this world? Why are their weapons costing tens of times more than their real value? How do they imagine fighting against any major country like that? But their stupid propaganda machine up until recently had us all believing in those myths and theology-like beliefs of their 'exceptionalism'. In 2022 against Russia we've seen that the US defense industry is objectively a paper tiger, even the last remaining copers can't deny that fact anymore (alongside its so-called global financial might - or called by them - their financial nuclear bombs haha), and in 2023 we see that the US Navy is a paper tiger as well, or at least that they don't have the guts to fight with Houthis.

But then again, it should've been realized a long time ago already (after eventual total defeats in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and partial defeats in Lybia and Syria, and even before then in Vietnam, and Korea). But now copers will say that America didn't go all-out against those states, but against China, they will magically go all out, they will summon all of its intergalactic powerful navy and show it those 'communists', haha. (As if trillions of dollars wasted in those places aren't already "all-out"). It's not that they didn't go all out, it's that they couldn't go all out due to the social and economic situation in their country being on the verge of civil war and bankruptcy at any time, but against China, it will be even harder to go all out as it is their largest economic partner that could collapse their economy completely in the first few months of the conflict.

Yeah, China doesn't have a recent history of fighting wars, but that's better than having a history of waging wars like the US but losing in the majority of them, partially or fully. It's also better to not have a recent history of wars against a 100 times weaker opponent than yourself in totally different parts of the world and terrains and climates and logistics than a Taiwan war scenario would be, it builds different sets of information in brains which we will be hard to discard once the war starts and acclimate. In fact, not only does China not have any different direction to focus, but it has for decades focused mainly on the war regarding Taiwan and inside the First Island Chain. Not to mention how Chinese military leadership is elected way less on a political, and ideological, basis, but more so on a real meritocracy basis. Probably even many times more intelligent because they got through the entire process of climbing the pyramid, unlike in the US through the backdoor. Anyway, I predict a quick defeat of the US in 4-6 months if the war on Taiwan starts even today, not to mention in the future. My opinions - no offense.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It seems that the whole world is waking up to the paper tiger of the US's so-called global military dominance now that they can't (or don't have the courage) to attack/defeat Houthis after everything they've been doing in the Red Sea (many times in the past promised to never in million years allow those important waterways to be blocked with their space-shuttle, ultra-powerful navy, by anyone in the region). If they can't even deal with and pressure Houthis, which is basically a semi-state actor, or ethnic group, imagine dealing with Iran, and then imagine dealing with China right on its shores, who have way more advanced missiles and drones, of all kinds, and the ability to produce them in the quantity that the US can't even fathom.
The Houthis are the de facto government of North Yemen. North Yemen aka Yemen Arab Republic used to be an independent country from 1962 until 1990 which controlled basically the same area the Houthis do today. That region has a long tradition of being an independent nation. North Yemen used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, while South Yemen used to be controlled by the British Empire.

We've seen pictures of how rusted and in what state are some of their ships currently due to tremendous over-use and the inability of the US defense industry to replenish them for decades (all of a sudden they will manage to start massively fixing their ships in that kind of environment after the war damage starts - doubt it).
The problem is China likely wouldn't just be fighting the US Navy, but also the Japanese and South Korean ones. China needs to start the conflict with that in mind. And while the US surface fleet is in a poor shape, they have a pretty large and relatively modern attack submarine fleet. They have also been building Flight III Arleigh Burke destroyers in decent numbers. They build like two a year.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Underestimating the US is definitely not something Chinese military and political planners should do. Behind all of China's conventional force should be a minimum of 3000 strategic nuclear warheads (>1 megaton yield) well before any sort of conventional military arms race with the US. Step in this match to fight once and win quickly, taking advantage of every domain of this conflict like the US has done wrt hybrid warfare.

US is desperately trying to hold itself together at the seams. It has pretty effective societal self correction mechanisms but capitalism is running its course with the US. There is only so far you can stretch your devaluation of money and expectation from the bottom half of your society. China in these regards are actually the exact opposite of what western media has been trying to spin for the last year. Those of us who observe and know, really know. We live and breathe in both spheres and change our minds based on genuine and tested evaluation. The US is becoming increasingly narrative based.

China brags little, lets the accusations and spin effort slide while focusing on correcting its own issues to the best of its ability. The US is simply breaking. Let it continue and if it ever actually gets on the rise in ways that matter, then we'll see China escalate in domains it hasn't bothered touching. NAFO morons typically have little intelligence and imagination, as evidenced by the nonsense they write. There are domains of warfare and dominance China hold they have no understanding over... at all. While the West is pulling on all its leverage over China and still losing ground, China has yet to exercise all that it can do with its weight. The typical response to these ideas from NAFO trolls is to regurgitate borderline racist nonsense and severely outdated notions. Much to their own loss anyway.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
The problem is China likely wouldn't just be fighting the US Navy, but also the Japanese and South Korean ones. China needs to start the conflict with that in mind. And while the US surface fleet is in a poor shape, they have a pretty large and relatively modern attack submarine fleet. They have also been building Flight III Arleigh Burke destroyers in decent numbers. They build like two a year.
China already has the military industrial capacity to deal with the JMSDF and ROKN even before taking North Korean forces into the equation, and in addition, Chinese single yard capacity already is capable of producing more DDGs than the US fully mobilized would be capable of, so there are already more firepower options available for the PLA than the US and their vassals would have anticipated. The SSN issue is something that both strategic rocket forces and AI advances would also be significant in countering in due time as well.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Underestimating the US is definitely not something Chinese military and political planners should do. Behind all of China's conventional force should be a minimum of 3000 strategic nuclear warheads (>1 megaton yield) well before any sort of conventional military arms race with the US. Step in this match to fight once and win quickly, taking advantage of every domain of this conflict like the US has done wrt hybrid warfare.

I would say 3000 warheads @ 1+ Megatons is overkill

Rationally, even 1000 warheads should be a sufficient deterrent, and we're likely looking at this number within 5 years. Accelerating this would cost more money, yet would only shave off 1-2 years. It doesn't seem worth it.

Then I would expect China to pass the active US warhead count of 1500 within another 5 years. This is definitely sufficient.

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On a conventional US-China arms race

1. In terms of overall GDP, once you adjust for consumer purchasing power parity, add a few of the large missing elements of SNA 2008 and correct the consumption figures, you end up with China being 56%-75% larger than the US

2. On an industrial purchasing power parity basis, the overall size of Chinese industry is more than 3x larger, as per UN numbers

3. The Pentagon is also reporting tidbits like China being 200x in terms of naval shipbuilding capacity, and instances where Chinese hypersonic missiles are 20x cheaper than their US equivalents

4. The Pentagon is also reporting to Congress that China is spending the equivalent of $700 Bn in terms of purchasing power parity. So roughly speaking, China is spending a maximum of 1.6% of GDP on its military. So theoretically, China could double its military spending to 3.2% tomorrow, yet this still wouldn't reach the US level of 3.4%

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Given these data points, China is already in a position to decisively "win" an arms race against the US

1. And we can see that in terms of Navy and Air Force procurement, China is already outbuilding the US.

2. Given that military equipment typically has a service life of 30 years, it's better to ramp up military spending now as the US still has an advantage from decades of high military spending, whilst China only really started in the past 5 years as the China-US competition kicked off. I would add that it was a strategic mistake for the US to abandon engagement with China.

3. Remember that the faster that the conventional Chinese military builds up, the less likelihood there is of a US-China war. It also means Chinese supply chains and Chinese factories become less risky, as the Chinese military can more effectively protect the homeland and extend this protection further outwards across the shipping lanes. This has domestic economic benefits. Arguably an extra $200 Bn (0.45% of GDP) in annual military spending could spur an additional $200 Bn in domestic Chinese investment.

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At the current rate of military modernisation, I would expect Japan to reluctantly acknowledge (within 10 years) that the Chinese military could enact an extended air/sea blockade of the Japanese Home Islands, despite US military involvement. At that point, Japan's military security is really dependent on China, not the USA. And at the same time, Japan's economy will have no choice but to depend on its larger Chinese neighbour, which is already the overall global leader (by far) in terms of the technologies of the next Industrial Revolution.

In such a scenario, Japan declaring war against China (for any reason) makes no sense. And without Japan, the US will not declare war on China either. So the risk of a real war goes down dramatically
 
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