PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
"Do a pearl harbour" has a lot of political connotations that are better left ignored.

What he is saying, is that if the PLA does not take the opportunity to carry out a comprehensive first strike with strategic initiative to target key staging areas of US military power in the region, then it offers the US to redeploy and surge and harden its positions in the western pacific to a degree which may result in the PLA and China overall losing a conflict over Taiwan and/or the western pacific at large.


Patchwork wrote a series of posts relating to this in the past on Reddit which has been copied over a few times on other places. I don't have the text, but others might.
But we should not ignore the political connotation. Politics plays big role in wars. If PLA conduct first strike, then yes US public will respond as if a Pearl Harbor attack. The public response then have major military consequence on how war will proceed.

Like wise, if there was no Chinese first strike, US economic mobilization will face major political barriers. Imagine this:
  • US enters the war without Chinese first strike.
  • Military is quick to mobilize and redeploy to safe zones.
  • US conduct skirmish against China across the globe
  • Attrition and high operation tempo necessitate increased personnel, funding to sustain
    • Funding: cutting public spending, increased tax
    • Personnel: either start drafting, or increase financial incentives to enter mlitary
  • If US is having a crushing victory, all is good.
  • If there are signs war is not going well, opposition start to rise in couple month, blocking further economic mobilization.
Should China conduct the first strike, US will be weaker on earlier step, but have easier to economically mobilize. It is much easier to convince citizens to give up their well-being because "commies are attacking us", than if they were to say "we gotta stop commies from attacking others"

So in my view, doing first strike will weaken existing US asset in the region, but give US easier time to mobilize for the long haul. There is a trade off happening.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
But we should not ignore the political connotation. Politics plays big role in wars. If PLA conduct first strike, then yes US public will respond as if a Pearl Harbor attack. The public response then have major military consequence on how war will proceed.

Like wise, if there was no Chinese first strike, US economic mobilization will face major political barriers. Imagine this:
  • US enters the war without Chinese first strike.
  • Military is quick to mobilize and redeploy to safe zones.
  • US conduct skirmish against China across the globe
  • Attrition and high operation tempo necessitate increased personnel, funding to sustain
    • Funding: cutting public spending, increased tax
    • Personnel: either start drafting, or increase financial incentives to enter mlitary
  • If US is having a crushing victory, all is good.
  • If there are signs war is not going well, opposition start to rise in couple month, blocking further economic mobilization.
Should China conduct the first strike, US will be weaker on earlier step, but have easier to economically mobilize. It is much easier to convince citizens to give up their well-being because "commies are attacking us", than if they were to say "we gotta stop commies from attacking others"

So in my view, doing first strike will weaken existing US asset in the region, but give US easier time to mobilize for the long haul. There is a trade off happening.
Its also a lot easier for China to goad US into a first strike, since it's US that claims part of China, not vice versa.

China also needs to worry about its own economic mobilization, maybe more so than about if US mobilizes or not. If both sides have 100% mobilization, China is much more likely to come out on top due to larger economy.

But if China starts a war on shaky premises, such as just striking US out of the blue all over the Pacific, even if they can say it was preemptive in order to prevent aggression on Taiwan, there may be many Chinese who don't want to be drawn into sudden war like that.

Instead, if US conduct clear aggression first, China will have an easy domestic mobilization.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Its also a lot easier for China to goad US into a first strike, since it's US that claims part of China, not vice versa.

China also needs to worry about its own economic mobilization, maybe more so than about if US mobilizes or not. If both sides have 100% mobilization, China is much more likely to come out on top due to larger economy.

But if China starts a war on shaky premises, such as just striking US out of the blue all over the Pacific, even if they can say it was preemptive in order to prevent aggression on Taiwan, there may be many Chinese who don't want to be drawn into sudden war like that.

Instead, if US conduct clear aggression first, China will have an easy domestic mobilization.
Yes, that would indeed be a viable alternative strategy. Prioritize opening phase or escalation phase? All comes down to which phase of the war China want to prioritize.
  1. Conduct first strike: weaken US existing assets, but making economic mobilization harder for China, easier for US.
  2. Goad US conduction first strike: weakens Chinese assets, but in a controlled manner. Easier economic mobilization for China, harder for US.
  3. Attack Taiwan first: Both sides have a tough time to mobilize, although Chinese political system naturally have an edge, still.
Both seem better than just attack Taiwan first in my opinion.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
I think you are focusing too much on the Taiwan Island.

Arm unification is actually the opening of a Sino-Americana war. The fighting around the Taiwan Island is only one of the theatres. The US has staked the credibility and reputation of its hegemony on the defence of the island. Not doing anything is not an option. The West’s participation in Civil War 2.0 is a certainty. The sooner PLA attacks the American bases, the more advantageous it is for China in the war.

If the Americans wants to assist the ROC forces in anyway, they become legitimate targets. Remember, NATO ISR assistance to Ukraine are costing Russian loves. Russia is unwilling to attack NATO assets because Russia can’t take on NATO forces conventionally. China has no such problem.

Letting the Hegemon and its vassals to gather their assets in the theatre is a huge strategic mistake, the one made by Saddam Hussein in Gulf War I. It actually makes sense to force the West’s hand early on before they can move their assets into the theatre, thus the reason I said the PLA should attack the Hegemon’s and its vassals’ assets in the West Pac as soon as possible. Destroying their bases of operations in the West Pac will make their attacks on China much much more difficult. China must use any excuse possible to do that in the opening of the war.
I am focusing on Taiwan Island. I am also aware of the larger geopolitical games going around when Armed Reunification happens.

I think that China's main war objective is its reunification with Taiwan island first and foremost. Now, if America wants to come into the fight and slug it out with China, then there is no reason for China to shy away from dishing out slugs to America. Nevertheless, why should China want to give the US a Pearl Harbor 2.0? Its the wet dream of many American military fiction writers. Its a gift to the China haters. It'll be a propaganda and moral coup for the US that it can use to rally people around the flag. China is not Imperial Japan in WW2, trying to conquer all of Asia by force. China only wants to reunite with its long lost island. There is no need to blow the hegemon away when the hegemon is not seeking for WW3 yet. Keeping the war within the scope of Taiwan Island saves lives, and keeps the war much more manageable. The hegemon wants to mess China up, but is still not suicidal enough to embrace WW3.

I know what the US truly wants out of a Taiwan conflict. It is gonna be these:
1) To make China bogged down in a war. Thereby disrupting its development.
2) Have another bunch of colored people fight and die for big brother America's interests. At little to no cost in American lives.
3) Empower Taiwan to grind the PLA down and ultimately weaken China's military strength. Like what is done to Russia on the other side of the world.
4) Bring the "international community" to condemn and shame China. If the Global South could be persuaded to turn against China, that would be even better. We all know one pretender from the Global South who would happily do it.
5) Give the US the excuse to throw the mother of all sanctions at China. Give the US the excuse it wants to rob China of its money in US banks. Thereby hoping that it'll wreck the Chinese economy, and "absolve" the US of its debt to China. The Republicans especially, would love this.
6) Give the excuse to the US and its allies attempt a soft blockade on China. Like refusing shipping insurance for ships heading in and out of China, or other grey zone stuff. Anything short of a hard blockade, since that is considered a formal act of war.
7) Give the US and other Western MICs that ultimate big fat bonanza.

None of the above would matter much if WW3 occurs and things go boom too quickly to be counted. Matters even less, if nukes started flying around.

Now, if you want to argue that China should unleash Pearl Harbor 2.0 on the US and friends as preemptive defense against their imminent attack, I'm not completely against that. But China needs to be absolutely sure of an imminent attack. That's gonna be a whole different discussion. How much force build up is too dangerous for China's own security? Could the US and friends mobilize enough forces near China, considering their other big commitments elsewhere? Could the US and friends even afford such a massive military confrontation against China? Ultimately, I think it is much better to China to have the US and friends fire the first shots of WW3, even if its gonna hit hard. China will gain the moral high ground, and the US will have to work that much harder to justify to everyone, why it started WW3. Sure the US could blame China for firing the first shot, but not everyone listens to American media. And more importantly, the Chinese people, and nations who are on China's side will know that they are on the right side of history.

Still, my gut feeling tells me that the US and friends just do not want WW3 with China (and Russia). They like to talk tough, but they are still afraid of hardship and death. The procurement costs for weapons and ammunition for the US today is so ludicrous, that it'll bankrupt itself to fund a WW3. China's role in the global supply chain is indispensable. The cost of losing trade with China is unimaginable. In the US, there are enough people of power and wealth whom are aware of that to stop the nutjobs from starting a direct war with China.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
But we should not ignore the political connotation. Politics plays big role in wars. If PLA conduct first strike, then yes US public will respond as if a Pearl Harbor attack. The public response then have major military consequence on how war will proceed.

Sigh, when I said pearl harbour had its political connotations, I obviously wasn't suggesting that carrying out a first strike would not have its own political connotations.

What I am saying is that pearl harbour had its own set of enduring political perceptions, significantly reflected by a view that it was done in a manner where a declaration of war had been viewed as not having been declared, and being out of the blue and underhanded.


However the US ends up viewing or portraying a PLA first strike is a reflection of its own political and media class, but there are absolutely ways in which a PLA first strike could and imo would be done in a manner such that it was preceded by significant political warning as well as being preceded by a declaration of war.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
PLA can declare an Operation Zone around the Taiwan Island in which includes a few Japanese Islands. China can declare the radars on the Japanese islands must not be turn on.

If any Western military assets enter the Operation Zone or if the radars on the Japanese islands are turned on, PLA will attack and destroy them. The pressure will be on the US to respond militarily. If it does, then full on attack by the PLA will be initiated.

If the US does’t retaliate right away, choose to build up its forces in theatre instead, China can still conduct an attack claiming she is conducting a preemptive strike (Just like President Bush did for Iraq War 2.0)
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think you are focusing too much on the Taiwan Island.

Arm unification is actually the opening of a Sino-Americana war. The fighting around the Taiwan Island is only one of the theatres. The US has staked the credibility and reputation of its hegemony on the defence of the island. Not doing anything is not an option. The West’s participation in Civil War 2.0 is a certainty. The sooner PLA attacks the American bases, the more advantageous it is for China in the war.

If the Americans wants to assist the ROC forces in anyway, they become legitimate targets. Remember, NATO ISR assistance to Ukraine are costing Russian loves. Russia is unwilling to attack NATO assets because Russia can’t take on NATO forces conventionally. China has no such problem.

Letting the Hegemon and its vassals to gather their assets in the theatre is a huge strategic mistake, the one made by Saddam Hussein in Gulf War I. It actually makes sense to force the West’s hand early on before they can move their assets into the theatre, thus the reason I said the PLA should attack the Hegemon’s and its vassals’ assets in the West Pac as soon as possible. Destroying their bases of operations in the West Pac will make their attacks on China much much more difficult. China must use any excuse possible to do that in the opening of the war.
And the fight will surely be a mano e mano between the Chinese navy VS US navy, SK will be so preoccupied with NK, while the Japanese for all its bravado will like to put its fleet North as defense from Russia , after all they lean to the American to fight her war for them as the price for their submissive.

The Philippine? the Chinese paramilitary navy will take good care of them, while the Aussies and Canadian navy will be hamstrung by logistic.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
And the fight will surely be a mano e mano between the Chinese navy VS US navy, SK will be so preoccupied with NK, while the Japanese for all its bravado will like to put its fleet North as defense from Russia , after all they lean to the American to fight her war for them as the price for their submissive.

The Philippine? the Chinese paramilitary navy will take good care of them, while the Aussies and Canadian navy will be hamstrung by logistic.
Chinese coast guard operates 056A and 054A. It is a total overmatch vs Philipine.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
"Do a pearl harbour" has a lot of political connotations that are better left ignored.

What he is saying, is that if the PLA does not take the opportunity to carry out a comprehensive first strike with strategic initiative to target key staging areas of US military power in the region, then it offers the US to redeploy and surge and harden its positions in the western pacific to a degree which may result in the PLA and China overall losing a conflict over Taiwan and/or the western pacific at large.


Patchwork wrote a series of posts relating to this in the past on Reddit which has been copied over a few times on other places. I don't have the text, but others might.
By far the no1 risk factor for China losing is low morale inside the country.

The difference in economy size (even bigger if you strip away down to productivity) all but guarantees long term victory. It is also impossible to disrupt China's economic advantage, US doesn't have anywhere enough strike power to make it through air defenses.

Therefore, the coming US attack on China is a war that will take on very similar aspects as the Japanese attack on America in ww2, in that it will be an air/naval conflict between a larger economy with an initially smaller fleet vs a smaller but much more mobilized economy, and where the homeland of neither country can be seriously threatened until the very end of the conflict.

Just like Japanese strategists surmised in ww2, their best path to victory was not to hunt down the whole USN or destroy American factories, which was impossible, but inflict morale victories in order to negotiate from a position of strength. This will also be the main threat facing China during ww3.

Besides just attempting to create advantegous large set piece battles to decrease Chinese morale, US would also use its propaganda apparatus.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
By far the no1 risk factor for China losing is low morale inside the country.

The difference in economy size (even bigger if you strip away down to productivity) all but guarantees long term victory. It is also impossible to disrupt China's economic advantage, US doesn't have anywhere enough strike power to make it through air defenses.

Therefore, the coming US attack on China is a war that will take on very similar aspects as the Japanese attack on America in ww2, in that it will be an air/naval conflict between a larger economy with an initially smaller fleet vs a smaller but much more mobilized economy, and where the homeland of neither country can be seriously threatened until the very end of the conflict.

Just like Japanese strategists surmised in ww2, their best path to victory was not to hunt down the whole USN or destroy American factories, which was impossible, but inflict morale victories in order to negotiate from a position of strength. This will also be the main threat facing China during ww3.

Besides just attempting to create advantegous large set piece battles to decrease Chinese morale, US would also use its propaganda apparatus.


Regarding morale and similar sociology-type soft metrics, Chinese and US morale can't be comparable in any shape or form, they are not in the same league now, not to mention in case of actual war regarding Taiwan (which for China will be a defensive, righteous, sacred one, and for US offensive-political one). I will give you some overall related statistics for example. I can give proof from Western sources themselves of everything I will state here. To preface, right now, the US is objectively way more compatible for a real civil war amongst themselves than to lead an offensive war against another superpower 10000km away (with double the strength of the USSR at least) from their shores and in their 100km backyard, for their 23rd province of the said superpower (which btw simply dwarfs them in industrial might many times over realistically).



Current government approval ratings are 20% for Biden in the US.

Edelman put 40% of the trust in the government for the US in 2023 overall, and China still 90%.

"My family and I will be better off in five years" - 65% in China, vs 36% in the US. So far this data was from Edelman 2023.

"Is my country headed in the right direction" - Around 90% China, 45% US, IPSOS 2019.

"Does my government work for everyone's benefit" - China around 80%, the US around 20%. Pew Asian Barometer 2020.

"How much do you trust your media" - China around 90%, US around 25%, Edelman/Gallup 2022.

The Global Happiness 2023 survey from Ipsos shows that China is the happiest country in the world at 91%.

A 2019 UC San Diego study shows a high level of satisfaction among the Chinese across a range of aspects up to 95%.

Latana’s Democracy Perception Index 2022 shows that 83% of Chinese believe their country is democratic.

Edelman puts the US in the 6 most polarized countries in the world in their study with people doubtful that "divisions can be overcome".

Gallup 2015, "willingness to fight for your country" - 71% China, 44% America, but really probably worsened for the US in major ways since then.


The US has the double suicide rate of China, the highest anti-depressant use in the world, way higher homicide rates, incarnation rates, more homeless, drug addicts, mass riots and lootings, etc. Easily verifiable.

Compare that to China now which has almost 0 anti-depressant use, has the lowest violent crime rate, the lowest incarceration rate, and the lowest recidivism rate in the world, and is typically enforced by unarmed cops.



Look at the US's racial, ethnic, ideological, political, federal, and financial, divisions, just look at pure metrics how many times are they more are they divided than China (you can check this yourself or use basic life sense to deduce this simply truth, but I have data for that too if needed). Also, if someone argues that this is just their civil population and not the military, where does the military come from?

They are employed by this same mentally unstable and divided general population who increasingly hate their own country, and their compatriots, and who, at best, have simply nothing in common with one another, and are there nearly entirely for monetary reasons probably.

A soldier from which side is then way more likely to give their maximum performance, stay all night, and give 100% of his bodily and mental powers in the case of a war?

Which civilian population would give it his 100% effort, stay all night in industrial factories, working to produce more military equipment for their country, which businesses will assist more, the US in China?

Who controls businesses in China vs in the US? Who has a better civil-military fusion? Who has more engineers, and factory-skilled workers? Not to mention that in the US even if they have, people are simply not willing to give their effort, as seen from these metrics.

Not that its population will help the war like in China, but the population in the US will probably start those violent inter-racial civil riots, lootings, attacks on the police stations, burning police cars, etc, really close after the war starts and it will keep intensifying over and over.




As a new poll suggests, the increasingly stark ideological divides of American politics have come with personal consequences. Nearly one in five voters — 19 percent — said that politics had hurt their friendships or family relationships. Twenty percent of Democrats and 21 percent of independents said so, compared with 14 percent of Republicans. But in interviews, people across the ideological spectrum told similar stories of estrangement: conversations broken off with siblings and children, decades-long friendships that have gone quiet. Most dated to the early days of Mr. Trump’s presidency and have not abated since its end.

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Perhaps the most striking change is the extent to which partisans view those in the opposing party as immoral. In 2016, about half of Republicans (47%) and slightly more than a third of Democrats (35%) said those in the other party were a lot or somewhat more immoral than other Americans. Today, 72% of Republicans regard Democrats as more immoral, and 63% of Democrats say the same about Republicans.

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The poll also finds that nearly half of young Americans (48%) have felt unsafe in the past month, with 40% worried about falling victim to gun violence. Trust in the Supreme Court to “do the right thing” has fallen by ten percentage points over the last decade, while less than half of young Americans feel like their local police department makes them safer. Nearly half (47%) of Americans under the age of 30 report “feeling down, depressed, or hopeless,” and 24% have considered self-harm at least several days in the last two weeks.

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Just 4% of U.S. adults say the political system is working extremely or very well; another 23% say it is working somewhat well. About six-in-ten (63%) express not too much or no confidence at all in the future of the U.S. political system.


Positive views of many governmental and political institutions are at historic lows. Just 16% of the public say they trust the federal government always or most of the time. While trust has hovered near historic lows for the better part of the last 20 years, today it stands among the lowest levels dating back nearly seven decades. And more Americans have an unfavorable than favorable opinion of the Supreme Court – the first time that has occurred in polling going back to the late 1980s.

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Here is some data that shows that the sociological situation in the US is not only not improving, but it's getting worse and worse every year. There is simply no hope, judging from it:




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