PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

lych470

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ya. I discounted the 3 day thingy as well but the 10,000 long range rocket is interesting. Kinda surprise he even gave a number.
During the Chen Shui Bien era Taiwan still published the number of missiles pointed at the island. I think they've stopped count after a while, because it's just demoralising. 2000 is the number I can find from Taiwan sources, that number could be doubled since the article is 4 years old.

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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
To a degree I don't think PRC will be able to sway Western opinions (perhaps the Chinese diaspora could help, but still doubtful). Controlling the narrative will be crucial. A total communication blackout is necessary, but hard to achieve due to satellite internet and satellite phones.
Low SNR for satellite communication means it's possible for broadband jammers to disable them. That of course will require air superiority.

Swaying western opinion would not be the primary purpose, it would be to counter misinformation such as successful resistance to build public support. If all they hear is nothing then they know that they're losing.

As an example of poor social media management, look at how Ukraine is able.to continue broadcasting proven fake news on Twitter even as Kiev is surrounded AND they still haven't lost credibility even though they've been proven wrong multiple times. Russia is dropping the ball.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm a little alarmed at how easily nuclear weapons and using them gets brought up in this thread. And yes, US would send nuke against any country nuking its allies. Let's not get ourselves into hypothetical armageddon kind of scenarios.

Unless China gets significantly more allies in key locations and better nuclear submarines, USN would be able to at minimum cut off ships with Chinese flags headed to the region. Now, it is a good question of how USN, with limited resources, would stop every ship and determine that it is headed to China and not Japan or Korea. I will leave it as that. And as I said earlier, China would be able to also significantly limit the energy and embargo to US if we do get a scenario where they do start attacking civilian trade/energy routes. Life would be suddenly very hard for citizens everywhere. Which is again why I think there will large calls for the two countries to come to a peace agreement once it becomes obvious this is headed into a war of attrition.

The nuclear weapon scenario is useful though in determining ultimate escalation ladder of any conflict between US and China. Depending on the type of attack against the chinese mainland (especially with regards to civilian targets), it would be possible for China to use nuclear weapons in retaliation if china has no other credible defense (although that would be open to interpretation). This is well engrained in discussions at both the government level and with the chinese populace. It is also true that the United States would nuke any country nuking itself or its allies. Therefore for the first step of the analysis, its reasonable to conclude both sides could use nukes.

Second level analysis: Assume that a nuclear exchange between the US and China costs around 500 million chinese lives and 80 million american lives (which would be a reasonable MAD assumption). If the possibility of China retaking taiwan is 50%, what would be the support of this outcome in China vs the US? Even with this lopsided ratio, I would assume the chinese public would have a higher support for this vis-a-vis the US, even if the US comes out with an undoubtedly superior kill ratio. Therefore the US would not want to go all the way through the escalation ladder.

In fact, it would be reasonable to assume that no matter how brutal a conflict between the US and China, the US would likely offer China repeated assurances that it would not attack civilian targets on the mainland, or only with methods for which a credible defense does exist (i.e. cruise missiles vs ballistic missiles) so that China wouldnt go nuclear.

I am also hesitant to quantify the impact of a complete blockade on China by the US. Russia, Pakistan, Mongolia, and Central Asia have no chance of following this, and depending on when this conflict happens (i.e. 2025, 2030...) the risk to China's energy supply chain grow less and less. Yes, China will always need oil through the ocean, but within the next 5 years this demand will be much less or at least fungible, with greater energy generation through renewables like solar, wind, hydro, nuclear and even coal (which is dying but can be turned back on).

Assuming that it took $30 trillion to turn China into the world's first electro-state (an article delves into this in the economist), I would say China has already spent half this amount through investment in EVs, the land portion of BRI, and research into battery density and solid state. Yes, while rare earths do come from Africa and argentina/chile/bolivia, most of china's battery research is now focused on sodium and nickel batteries, the first cost-competitive EVs which already started rolling out across China the past few years. Basically the worst case scenario of a full fledged containment by the US and all western powers has been the baseline assumption of China's political and economic projections into the 2030's, and anything less than that can already be thought of as upside.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
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Military commentator Song Zhongping said the PLA must have factored the possible intervention of the US into its calculations for an operation in Taiwan.

“Russia used its nuclear deterrence to prevent the US and Nato from direct involvement before launching the blitz at Ukraine with conventional weapons. Nuclear is the key here,” he said.

I did post this on the other thread but since it’s somewhat relevant here. I will repost it on the matter of nuclear weapons over Taiwan

GlobalTimes whoever this “Song Zhongping” person is quite extensively used as an analyst in their articles (+10 in the last 30 days).

On the usage, it’s up for guessing but I think it’s very likely China is building up more nuclear weapons against the Western Powers.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Perhaps some of the shipbuilding capacity can be destroyed, but the Bohai Sea is a well protected inland sea, the shipyards there can continue. In the meantime, USN losses would be at rates they wouldn't be able to sustain with their production when used to attack China's coastline since they will get focus fired on by a combination of PLARF, PLAN and PLAAF. We're talking 12 million tonnes of Chinese shipbuilding output vs. 400,000 of the US shipyards iirc?

I think for this total war scenario, it is better to assume that China's shipborne capabilities are attritted to zero, or virtually nil, with only capability to build small FACs (shipyards being big and juicy targets). The better use of China industrial capabilities would be to shift full production into missiles, drones, and other aerial assets. There is no point building a 50%, 30%, or even 10% navy against the US unless you can actually defeat them (the japanese and german battleships of WWII being the biggest military wastes in history).

In any other scenario, I would rather China have a balanced and modern navy, but in a war of annihilation against the US, I would trade every ship including our tugboats for the ability to produce and launch 1000 cruise/hypersonic missiles a day, which will turn the entire westpac into the worlds largest ship-free nature preserve since the days of the industrial revolution.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Not quite. There are very few if any US/western media outlets that even consider the idea of the US waging a war of attrition (or total war, to include the term that james has specified) against China, and more often than not, western media bemoans the fact that their previous massive overwhelming military advantage against China is eroding thanks to the PLA's modernization.

But what they do not specify is that they only talk about the US's military advantage being eroded in their permanently deployed western pacific forces, not in terms of global US military forces and their ability to be redeployed during a longer term war.


In other words, everything I've described isn't a story resulting from media reports or commentary.
This is my own assessment of the prerequisite capabilities the PLA should aim for so as to be capable of at least fight a war against the US military in a manner where they are able to achieve China's geopolitical objectives, while considering the full range of realistic force dispositions and strategic opposition that China may face.


Let me be clear -- if a war happened today, and if the US lacked the political/societal resolve to fight a longer term war, and if the US was not willing to redeploy their forces from the rest of the world to the western pacific, then there is a very real prospect that the PLA may be capable of attaining a victory by badly mauling/degrading existing US pacific forces (including a few carriers). The PLA itself would likely sustain significant losses, but lack of US resolve and lack of US willingness to commit their global forces against China would allow the PLA to clinch a victory and be able to successfully continue with its invasion of Taiwan and to hold it.
This would be the best outcome for the PLA.

But I cannot imagine the Chinese leadership would very comfortable with those two assumptions (lack of US resolve, and US unwillingness to redeploy global forces) being the prerequisites of a favourable outcome for the PLA.
The responsible and prudent assessment and force projection to assure a favourable outcome for the PLA categorically must assume plentiful US resolve and US willingness to redeploy its global forces against China as part of a multi-year long war of attrition/total war, and to develop and procure their military forces into the future as close as possible to be capable of attaining a favourable outcome under those circumstances.

(Addendum -- if it wasn't obvious, I am operating on the basis that the "total war" term describes all manners of war short of circumstances where nukes are used)

To your point, I believe the baseline scenario of China's central military commission has always been that the US has the resolve, and is willing to deploy all forces to fight China in Westpac. Naturally, this is the driving force for BRI, which postulates an eventual complete encirclement of china by maritime means (as china's navy will not be able to break out against the full USN). This is the number one concern (and indeed an existential one) over at least the past decade if not longer. Hence, the trillions of dollars being invested in China's electro-state, the first in the world (and the trillions of $ to come) to ensure that China can survive a full blown containment.

Semi conductors and AI may be instruments to ensure the chinese century, but its battery technology and non-hydrocarbon energy which will enable the PRC to survive the next decades in total war against US.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
I know, I know...

My point is that for the purposes of this discussion (guiding strategic planning and military procurement), the outcome of "surrender" and "MAD" are basically the same and equally undesirable.




I don't disagree with the thrust of what you're writing, but to consider future strategic planning and military procurement, requires a recognition of what the vulnerabilities and correlations of forces that exist at present, which -- as evidenced by the past week and a half -- multiple people do not seem to agree with.

Not quite, "MAD" is not the same as surrender, its really the draw condition for nuclear states. Otherwise we could flip the argument and say the absurd that the US would certainly "lose" if China decided that Hawaii were to become independent because US's only choices were 1) surrender to such an absurd demand or 2) accept MAD (if china wanted to stupidly push), which is the "same and equally undesirable".
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
The russian operation in ukraine makes me think of the issue of how to conduct assaults in taiwan without endangering the civilian population.

The PLA could certainly blow up every square inch of the island but that will be unpopular domestically as most mainland chinese still view taiwanese as kin

On a side note. It also showed me that the western trope of guerilla warfare and civilian resistance is not really realistic. Civilians may say a lot online but shut up and stay home really quickly once war breaks out.
 
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