Pakistan to receive Spruance Class destroyer from the US

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
maglomanic said:
Guys,

just wanted to add few things here. IMHO PN won't be getting Sprunace. There are quite few insiders (pshamim on sindefence) who would be able to throw some light on it. The main problem is logistics, modifications, operating cost and then still you have all your eggs in one basket (too much capabilty and responsibilty that comes with capabilty) in one platform which will force enemy to target it specificaly and makes it harder to spread capabilty.

Looks like Pn is more interested in frigates (OHPs high end complemented by Ellis and F-22p at lower end)

I also won’t to add few things here… Since Spruance will be striped from better part of equipment I really don’t see the point of buying him other then to have DDG….. Especially since Pakistan has little experience with 10,000t destroyers which will cause facility and refit problems. Her crew requirements (including the hello) are almost 400. The Mk41 launchers will end up empty (no SM2, no Tomahawk)…

As for OHP they don’t carry SM1/Harpoon Mk13launchers anymore…. So OPH need to be rearmed whit new SAM and SSM…
It looks to me that the best buy are Kortnaers, they at least came fully armed…

So in real world Kortnaers will be HI end of Pakistani HI/Lo mix…
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
SABRE said:
Its simple FreeAsia2000. You only have to look at Strategic positioning of the port(s) and international relations/politics of both Pakistan & Iran. Strategicaly and on the basis of IR, Iran was wasting time and money. The concept of Gwadar is:

1. To take land locked central asia's mineral and other resources and export them Via warm southern waters in the Arabian sea to West (America & Europe) and vice versa.

2. To take Middle Easterm mineral and other trade resources and trade them to East Asia and vice versa.


Now Chobar has similar motives behind it, along with trade of Iran's own mineral and other resources, but the issue is that West (specially America) wont take any thing from Iranian ports (cause of the international politics, specially the one right now) & since Gwadar is strategicaly nearer to ME & is much nearer port to East Asia than Iran's Chobhar port, the East Asian countries will prefer to port at the nearest base.

When talking of East Asia, China is the bigger and most significant country and since it has its share in Gwadar it will not port at Iranian Chobhar port.

Hence, the best option for Iran is Iran-Pakistan gas pipe line, which will eventually ended up at Gwadr's sea opening to be exported and also allow Middle Easter oil and gas pipe-lines and other goods to be traded, via Iran, rather than UAE to Gwadr and earn money. Iran rout also saves alot of money.


The Gwadar project is not new. Not many ppl knw abt the "Blue Prints" of Gwadr project. Its not hidden story but no one really informed any one and Pak govt dint care to leak the reality out;

The Gwadar port was actually planed by the Soviet's in 1970s. Since USSR had become 2nd largest threat after India, relations had gone bad. USSR however, needed Gwadr badly to drain its oil (including that of Central Asian countries it held) via warn sea in the South. The relations of Iran with west went cold after Islamic revolution and Iran was also not establishing good relations with USSR (It was still on the Iranian "Evil" list). Hence, no one would port at Iran. India was too far and not strategicaly located. What was left in the option was Pakistan > Balochistan > Gwadar....hence they started planning on Blue prints on Gwadar (with Pakistan un-aware). Somehow the Pakistani intelegence got hold of the information (some sources say it was informed by Chinese). This was reported to General Zia and the Strategic department of the Pak amry some how concluded that "USSR will attack Afghanistan" (in order to get to Gwadar). This was informed to Americans and Americans intelegence assessed that invasion may really take place & it did take place. The major thing not infromed here is that USSR offered kingdom and alot of money to 2 unnamed Baloch tribal chief if they help defect Balochistan from Pakistan via a civil war. lucky for Pakistan they denied USSR's offer, informed it to Pak govt and declared Jihad of USSR.

USSR suffered defeat in Afghanistan & later in 1991 it broke up. In 1993-94 China some how got hold of Gwadar project "Blue Prints" made by USSR. They were showed to Pak govt and both decided to build on it since it will now be possible for China and Pak to drain oil from newly freed central Asian countries. Some modifications were made to the project. Pakistan wanted to invite USA into the project as well, but thanks to a democrate govt in USA relations werent going that warm and good.

The modifications made by China later revealed military/Naval advantages of the port. This is what took America and India by storm. The military/naval aspects are stamped as PAk-China merchant Navy deployment.
The other side of this is the Chitagong port in Bangladesh. PLAAN would be based in the Bay of Bengal (in the East of India) and at Gwadr (in the West of India) and the continious movement of PLAAN & PN (also BN) from one point to another means tht these joint navies will continiously pass through south of India, thus capable of blocking entire indian sea.

[No wounder India wants patriots (may be to counter chinese nuke-sabs BMs and CMs--just in case) and F-18s (just in case to counter PLAAN ships) --- various features of Gwadar's impact on India and US were givin in the "TIMES" magazine]

The current terrorist activities in Balochistan are also part of this ... I'll not drag it cause it could become too political (for some minority members here).

Hi

That's really interesting.

Though I know for a personal fact from relatives that even in the late 50's early 60's people in the PN were discussing Gwadar as an alternative to Karachi

tphuang I think Pakistan is also reluctant to buy the Spruance because the americans know more it than the PN and pakistan had quite some problems
with the f-16's during the clinton era.

china is a safer known factor
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
isthvan said:
I also won’t to add few things here… Since Spruance will be striped from better part of equipment I really don’t see the point of buying him other then to have DDG….. Especially since Pakistan has little experience with 10,000t destroyers which will cause facility and refit problems. Her crew requirements (including the hello) are almost 400. The Mk41 launchers will end up empty (no SM2, no Tomahawk)…

As for OHP they don’t carry SM1/Harpoon Mk13launchers anymore…. So OPH need to be rearmed whit new SAM and SSM…
It looks to me that the best buy are Kortnaers, they at least came fully armed…

So in real world Kortnaers will be HI end of Pakistani HI/Lo mix…

The IN outnumbers and outclass the PN. Surface ship procurement are at best, used for patrol of Pakistan's EEZ. During a wartime scenario, their survivability is very short. Having said that, PN's teeth lies in its submarine fleet. Threatening IN high value units, such as the Vikramaditya, would make them think twice about doing a blockade.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
IDonT said:
The IN outnumbers and outclass the PN. Surface ship procurement are at best, used for patrol of Pakistan's EEZ. During a wartime scenario, their survivability is very short. Having said that, PN's teeth lies in its submarine fleet. Threatening IN high value units, such as the Vikramaditya, would make them think twice about doing a blockade.

IDonT please read the article I posted from Defence Journal.

The PN does have a naval acquisition strategy which is workable and does
take into account it's budgetary constraints.

The surface ships are going to be used for defensive purposes with the
assistance of Erieye and naval aircraft.

So far the article from several years ago has been spot on.


"You give pressure, I give pressure - Bus Uncle"
 

Diving Falcon

Junior Member
New and very interesting article from Janes Defence Weekly;
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Pakistan plans to bolster navy

Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent
New Delhi

The Pakistan Navy (PN) is looking to bolster its frigate fleet as negotiations get under way to buy four second-hand frigates from Greece, in addition to finalising the acquisition of four Chinese frigates, to counter India's rapid naval expansion.

Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said that two 3,780-ton Elli-class (Kortenaer) frigates would be delivered later in 2006 and the rest in 2007. The comments came after he met his counterpart, Costas Karamanlis, in Athens on 15 May during a visit to Greece.

However, the onward sale of the ex-Royal Netherlands Navy's Kortenaer- class frigates is subject to approval from The Hague and Jane's understands that this has yet to be officially granted.

Under US sanctions throughout the 1990s for its clandestine nuclear programme, Pakistan has been acquiring military equipment from a variety of overseas sources to meet its defence needs and maintain parity with India.

In line with this, the PN's Chief of Staff, Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir, is currently in China to finalise details of the deal signed in 2005 for four modified Jiangwei II (Type 053H3) frigates, dubbed the F-22P for Pakistan.

Defence sources said three of the vessels would be built by the Hudong Zhonghua Shipbuilding Company with keel-laying scheduled for the Chinese-built lead unit in early 2007 and delivery planned two years later.

The Chinese shipbuilding conglomerate will also upgrade the Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works in southern Pakistan to build and deliver the fourth F-22P frigate by 2013.

Beyond this, the navy is considering acquiring at least four further Chinese frigates: either larger and improved F-22P ships, or another design, such as China's Jiangkai (Type 054) class.

The PN is also believed to be evaluating the purchase of second-hand frigates displacing at least 2,800 tons from the US, Turkey and the Netherlands, but these acquisitions remain undefined. Adm Tahir recently stated that the PN was also assessing the purchase of four new corvettes of between 1,500 tons-2,000 tons, which would be built at KSEW alongside the F-22Ps.
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According to the above article, the PN's acquisition plans seem to be;

4 New-built frigates above 3500tons (Type-054?, MEKO?)
4 Used frigates from somewhere (done with Kortnaer Class)
4 New-built frigates between 2400tons and 2600tons (done with F-22P)
? Used frigates from U.S, Netherlands and Turkey (2~4, OHP and/or M Class?)
4 New-built corvettes between 1500ton and 2000 tons (MILGEM, Baynunah, MEKO?)

Earlier the PN said it required 3-5 additional SSK submarines to replace the Daphne and Agosta-70s; the DCN Marlin, HDW U-214 and Type-039G Song-Class are probably being considered. We also need to consider the fact that the Allouette-IIIs and Seakings will need to be replaced as well. So the Pakistan Government is serious about bolstering the navy up to proper standards in quality and quantity.

Regarding the Spruance offer, I believe the PN requested two Oliver Hazard Perry Class FFGs instead of the Spruance; remember the Spruance was offered on a grant basis (free), and I think the OHPs will eventually be offered on grant as well. If anything, I think the PN will procure two OHPs for free and buy two M-Class FFGs (Karel Doorman Class) from The Netherlands when they become available (2009-2012?). From Turkey I believe the PN will try to acquire the MILGEM Class Corvette with production capabilities, the PN currently needs four - but that number may rise if frigates cannot be procured.
 
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isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Diving Falcon AFAIK Netherlands has only 4 M-class frigates left, and IIRC most probable buyers for those Doorman’s are Portugal and Belgium. So it is weary doubtful that Pak navy will buy Doorman’s…

Most possible procurement for Pakistan is retired USN Perry’s… And since Perry’s don’t have Mk13 any longer they must be fitted whit new SSM and SAM systems. That’s not cheep but that’s Pakistani only option (since they will probably receive Perry’s for free they should be able to buy new equipment).

Now what bugs me the most whit new Pakistani naval program is complete lack of fleet air defenses? All ships that are entering/will enter service are only capable for limited self defenses from air attack/SSM attack making the fleet weary woundable…
If Pakistan wants to have fleet capable to conduct wartime operations they need too improve fleets air defenses…
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Now what bugs me the most whit new Pakistani naval program is complete lack of fleet air defenses? All ships that are entering/will enter service are only capable for limited self defenses from air attack/SSM attack making the fleet weary woundable…
If Pakistan wants to have fleet capable to conduct wartime operations they need too improve fleets air defenses…

yeas, but thats where the money comes in...Of what we can tell from this new rumours of PAN aquiring new fleet units one thing is sure, they are seeking for bargain price second hand items, and in those markets, all good AAW assets have already been sold, Jacob Van Hemsteak's to Chile and Kidds to Taiwan...unless RN is putting Type 42 for sale and PAN wants to aquire those old ships....
 

Diving Falcon

Junior Member
I think that if indeed the Pakistan Navy wants to procure another batch of new built frigates, they should go for anti-air/air defence frigates. The Pakistan Navy lacks and will need considerable anti-air and anti-submarine capability. Right now, the plans to procure 4 new frigates and 4 new corvettes are not detailed - for all we know they may indeed be dedicated anti-air and ASW vessels. We will just have to wait and see.

In my opinion though, I think at least 2 solid air defence frigates with displacements of 3500+ tons should be procured; options include the MEKO-A200 and a variant of the Type-054. The corvettes in my opinion should be ASW oriented - with at least two of them being fully committed ASW vessels.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Gollevainen said:
yeas, but thats where the money comes in...Of what we can tell from this new rumours of PAN aquiring new fleet units one thing is sure, they are seeking for bargain price second hand items, and in those markets, all good AAW assets have already been sold, Jacob Van Hemsteak's to Chile and Kidds to Taiwan...unless RN is putting Type 42 for sale and PAN wants to aquire those old ships....

I agree Golly… Maybe the best way (but probably not cheapest way) to improve fleet air defenses would be OHP modernization (similar to Australian but without SM2 missiles)… Installation of 8x cell Mk41 for ESSM should not be too expensive (especially if they receive Perry’s for free) and modernized Perry’s would greatly improve air defenses (ESSM is in level whit Standard SM1).
Naturally that is not complete solution but its still vast improvement compared to current situation…
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Agreed Isthvan. Perhaps the PN should look into procuring something like a Slava. This would be cheaper (I'm assuming that it would be cheaper because its Russian.) than a couple of OHPs, it comes with the S-300 and also SS-N-12s. Assuming that Russia gives them everything right away. Just a thought.
 
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