Pakistan to receive Spruance Class destroyer from the US

Gollevainen

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If other members are directing the discussion to off-topic, don't reply and get pulled to that rocky road. However If the "off-topic" discussion is interesting and constructive opening new wievs and directions, then it's allowed. But just to know, Indian-pakistan or other A vs. B issues don't fall to that gathegory.

PS. In future, don't go editing moderators redtext away from your post even when doing similar things like above...

Gollevainen
 

Dizasta

New Member
Registered Member
Gollevainen said:
If other members are directing the discussion to off-topic, don't reply and get pulled to that rocky road. However If the "off-topic" discussion is interesting and constructive opening new wievs and directions, then it's allowed. But just to know, Indian-pakistan or other A vs. B issues don't fall to that gathegory.

PS. In future, don't go editing moderators redtext away from your post even when doing similar things like above...

Gollevainen

Understood, forum rules will be adhered to!
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Still on the same subject of Pakistan's expanding navy...which is probably
way overdue and in line with the trade/war situation of the future the
Iranian government had apparently decided to ditch the Chobhar port idea
and to contribute towards Gwadar !

Iranian parliament ratifies Preferential Trade Agreement with Pakistan
POL-LD-PAKISTAN-IRAN
Iranian parliament ratifies Preferential Trade Agreement with Pakistan

ISLAMABAD, May 24 (KUNA) -- The Iranian parliament has ratified Preferential Trade Agreement (PTA) with Pakistan which will go a long way in expanding trade between the two countries, said Iranian Foreign Minister here Wednesday.

Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki informed Pakistan in a meeting with Advisor to Prime Minister on Finance Dr. Salman Shah prior to the opening of 16th Pakistan-Iran Joint Economic Commission (JEC), said a press statement. Pakistan has already ratified this agreement. Mottaki, who is also co-Chairperson of the joint commission, stressed the need for laying solid foundations of expanding relations between the two countries. He said that his country is ready to provide one hundred megawatt of electricity to Gwadar, opening of a bank branch of its National Bank in Karachi, enhancing inter-bank relations, provision of one hundred and twenty million dollars worth of export guarantee, improving port, rail and road links, enhance relations in medicine and health projects, linking Iran with fiber optic network and customs operations improvement besides enhancing barter trade. He expressed confidence that both will countries will agree in the current meeting on establishment of joint investment company, opening of bank branch in Karachi, finalizing cooperation in agriculture, settlement of tariff issues and security cooperation which will pave way for enhanced trade and economic ties between the two countries. Committees on transportation and technical cooperation, trade, banking and customs, agriculture, industry, mining and coordination will discuss ways and means to finalize various agreements and MOUs to enhance cooperation between the two countries, said the statement. Salman Shah said both countries have great potential to expand their cooperation in various fields but it has not been realized so far. (Pick up the previous). amn.
ajs

KUNA 241824 May 06NNNN

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So now it appears that all the surrounding countries have realised that
Gwadar will proceed with or without them and want their share of the cake.
I wonder why Iran has changed it's policy in such a short period

and yet at the same time america is eager for pakistan to receive energy from
Central Asia instead !

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 E-Mail this article to a friend Printer Friendly Version

US to help Pakistan meet energy needs

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and United States on Tuesday began a Strategic Economic Partnership Dialogue to strengthen economic and trade relation as well as integration of South Asia and Central Asia. Josette Shiner, the US under secretary of economic, business and agriculture affairs, and Dr Salman Shah, the prime minister’s advisor on finance, discussed trade, investment, energy, business climate, economic reforms and other economic issues.

Talking to reporters after meeting Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, Shiner said that both countries had decided to enter into a strategic economic partnership dialogue to strengthen economic and trade relations during President Bush’s visit to Pakistan.

She said that an energy forum will be held soon in Pakistan where the Asian Development Bank, World Bank, private sector and officials from the region will discuss energy sharing strategy for South Asia and Central Asia. staff report

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There's a fantastic article in the defence journal about the pakistan's future naval vision

Pakistan’s Security Concerns and the Navy

Columnist MALIK AYAZ HUSSAIN TIWANA discusses our naval defence.

With the development of sea ports at Gwadar, Ormara and expansion of facilities at Karachi and Port Qasim, Pakistan is on the threshold of becoming a major conduit for the trade and commerce as well as oil outlets for the Central Asian Republics. Pakistan’s own ninety-six percent of trade with the outside world is sea borne. In addition, the country is blessed, in the Arabian Sea, with a big Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), which is termed as the biggest province of Pakistan, with a huge potential in economic terms. Strategic international sea-lanes of communications, especially out of the Persian Gulf, pass very close to us. We have important interests in the Gulf states and a big Pakistani expatriate community, who need a strong link with their motherland. The sea could be separating communities and nations, but at times it may be the only link between them. These links and lines of communications must be safeguarded and defended. This can be done only by a strong Pakistan Navy, which must be balanced in all three dimensions i.e. surface, subsurface and the air, for mutual support.

2. However, we the people belonging to a contiguous landmass, have failed to understand the sea, its advantages and its demands along with the dynamics of naval warfare. It is alarming to know that there are still some people, in and out of the decision making process, who would rather reduce the effectiveness of the Pakistan Navy to that of a Coast Guard. Their mindset seems to be the same as that of the Moghals, who neglected to secure their sea frontiers and failed to challenge the European encroachments in time. Haider Ali’s and Tipu Sultan’s subsequent efforts at redeeming the situation proved too late. Even in the heydays of united Pakistan (Pre 1971), the governments of the period did not comprehend the naval threat, did not take adequate measures to strengthen the navy and consequently lost the only link with our eastern wing. This was inspite of clear warnings, given a few years earlier, by the then chief of the naval staff, the upright Vice Admiral H.M.S. Chaudhry, one of the very few officers in Pakistan’s history (civil or military), to have resigned on a matter of principle at the altar of his convictions and military honour. If his proposals for a strong navy had been accepted and the Pakistan Air Force elements in the east beefed up, the military outcome (not the political outcome) of 1971, in the Eastern Theatre, might have been quite different. For all practical purposes, East Pakistan was, in fact an island in a sea of hostility.

3. Credit must be given to the Hamoudur Rehman Commission Report and the government of Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, which implemented some of its findings and recommendations. Over the years, Pakistan Navy’s operational capability has enhanced to levels where it could effectively prevent the Indian Navy from attempting a blockade (an act of war) of Karachi Port during the Kargil crises, when Indian troops were being squeezed in the mountains of Kashmir. In the present volatile situation, while the Indians have massed their troops on flimsy grounds, if they had noticed a weak spot in our naval defences, by now they would have started harassment of our shipping followed by arrests and a selective blockade. The fact that they have not adopted this dangerous course of action as yet is because they are aware of the terrible retribution that is likely to be meted out to them. Undeniably, this speaks volumes for the dedication, professionalism and ingenuity of Pakistan Navy’s men and officers, who, inspite of limited resources, have kept the enemy at bay.

4. However, the adversary has also learned his lessons and has taken various technological measures to increase his offensive capability. This demands a reappraisal of the naval threat and our response to it. While India is trying to expand its navy for the projection of power far beyond her borders in order to achieve regional hegemony (the littoral states of the Indian Ocean better watch out), Pakistan’s aim is to achieve a reliable defensive capability. Navies being more capital intensive than the other services, Pakistan should not, and need not, try to match ship for ship or submarine for submarine. Instead it should go for acquiring the latest technologies. In future, the added responsibility of defending Gwadar and Ormara along with the Karachi Complex, would put additional burden on the scant resources of Pakistan Navy.

5. It is imperative that we recognize the limitations of our naval forces and start remedial actions within our budgetary constraints. Naval warfare, like aerial warfare, is very technology intensive, therefore, apart from contracting for additional ships, submarines, helicopters and aircraft, we must upgrade the existing platforms with state of the art weapon systems and electronic warfare equipment to counter the enemy’s numerical superiority. In modern naval warfare better onboard weapon and electronic technology will be the dominant factor (like in aerial warfare) along with many other intangibles like training and morale.

6. Once a conflict starts, the duration of war could turn out to be a very unpredictable factor. Essential supplies, even for the war effort, could run out. Oil refineries could be bombed and refined petroleum products and other essential supplies would have to be brought in by sea. On the other hand, the Indians have a much bigger logistics stamina and the advantages of their eastern ports. To keep the Indian navy off balance, our naval forces must have offensive elements within an overall defensive strategy, something like our other two services, the army and the air force — a strategy of defensive offence. For this, the most appropriate naval weapon systems would be the missile-equipped submarines backed by long range maritime aircraft, which can take the battle deep into enemy waters.

7. In any future conflict, Pakistan naval forces should be capable of selectively operating on India’s eastern seaboard, threatening its shipping and tieing down a portion of the Indian navy in the east. Also, Pakistan naval units should be adequately equipped to challenge and break any enemy blockade attempted away from the ranges of our Air Force cover. Till the development of long range intercontinental missiles by Pakistan, the only weapon system, which can give a global reach (if required) to Pakistani arms, is the nuclear missile-firing submarine.

8. Missile boats would essentially remain in the defensive role because of their inability to operate in rough seas and endurance limitations. The role of capital ships like the frigates and destroyers has been a subject of much controversy. Although technology has certainly changed some of the traditional roles of naval platforms, we must remember that the surface ship (2000 tons and above) relates to the navy what the infantry relates to the army. It is the primary platform for sea control and most naval operations (not easily understood by ordinary mortals outside the profession) are intertwined with the (vulnerable) surface ship. In our environment, the role of frigates and destroyers would primarily be defensive, for escort and anti-submarine operations, unless the Strategic Command wants to use them, for the time being, as the launch platforms, to complete our “Nuclear Triad”, in which case they would be called upon to operate in an offensive role. However, due to the proximity of Indian Air Force airfields and the availability of an aircraft earlier (acquiring a second one from Russia), our surface units, especially destroyers/frigates would remain vulnerable to anti-ship missile attacks from Indian aircraft. Therefore, to ensure their defence, adequate air protection would have to be provided to them by the Pakistan Air Force, during critical phases of transition/battle. As it is, navies cannot function without air support. This would require very close coordination between the Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Navy. This coordination would be most effective if it is backed by an Airborne Early Warning (AEW) system, to give sufficient reaction time to respond to enemy air attacks. This has become all the more important now because the Indian navy’s new carrier-borne aircraft have much bigger ranges than the earlier versions and while staying well outside our land based fighter bomber ranges, they could carry out effective air operations against our ships and other targets on land.

9. We must take into account the effect of sea power upon the course of history, including our own short history, and relate it to the political, geographical, economic and psychological factors which are likely to influence the course of future events in our region. Due to technological advancements including nuclearization, changed geostrategic requirements and the lessons learnt in the past few decades, we need to revise our naval doctrine, ensuring that it fits within our Grand National and military strategic objectives. Here, we must remember that inspite of our supposedly enhanced geostrategic importance (for the time being), we cannot depend on foreign fleets to come to our rescue. As on land and in the air, we have to fight our sea battles ourselves and cannot let our naval battle-readiness deteriorate. Although the high cost of naval armaments (inspite of indigenization) makes them politically controversial, we should not allow “Technological outflanking” by the enemy. We must ensure that the past mistakes are not repeated and the navy is not hurled into battle without the requisite means. Constant upgradations and new acquisitions must be considered so that our sea frontiers remain secure. Any lapses would be at our own peril.
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Is the Spruance armed with the VLS and the Tomahawks? I doubt that it is, but you never know.

The PN and the IN are now much more equal. However, they both have ships they may not be able to protect. The IN has its carrier, and IMO the IN does not have the SAM and ASW capability to protect it. The PN will need to protect the Spruance, and it may have problems with protecting it. But I guess that is what the Perrys are for. Really all the PN needs is the capability to defend the Arabian Sea and prevent the IN from blockading Pakistan. So this purchase is a real advance for the PN. It gives it more ASM capability and more survivability. Sea defence.

The US and China are both competeing for influence in Pakistan. Personally, I think that the US should try to make Pakistan into a "nuetral state" to avoid the possiblity of a proxy US-Chinese war through Pakistan and India.
 

SABRE

Junior Member
FreeAsia2000 said:
Still on the same subject of Pakistan's expanding navy...which is probably
way overdue and in line with the trade/war situation of the future the
Iranian government had apparently decided to ditch the Chobhar port idea
and to contribute towards Gwadar !



Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


So now it appears that all the surrounding countries have realised that
Gwadar will proceed with or without them and want their share of the cake.
I wonder why Iran has changed it's policy in such a short period

and yet at the same time america is eager for pakistan to receive energy from
Central Asia instead !



Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


There's a fantastic article in the defence journal about the pakistan's future naval vision


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Its simple FreeAsia2000. You only have to look at Strategic positioning of the port(s) and international relations/politics of both Pakistan & Iran. Strategicaly and on the basis of IR, Iran was wasting time and money. The concept of Gwadar is:

1. To take land locked central asia's mineral and other resources and export them Via warm southern waters in the Arabian sea to West (America & Europe) and vice versa.

2. To take Middle Easterm mineral and other trade resources and trade them to East Asia and vice versa.


Now Chobar has similar motives behind it, along with trade of Iran's own mineral and other resources, but the issue is that West (specially America) wont take any thing from Iranian ports (cause of the international politics, specially the one right now) & since Gwadar is strategicaly nearer to ME & is much nearer port to East Asia than Iran's Chobhar port, the East Asian countries will prefer to port at the nearest base.

When talking of East Asia, China is the bigger and most significant country and since it has its share in Gwadar it will not port at Iranian Chobhar port.

Hence, the best option for Iran is Iran-Pakistan gas pipe line, which will eventually ended up at Gwadr's sea opening to be exported and also allow Middle Easter oil and gas pipe-lines and other goods to be traded, via Iran, rather than UAE to Gwadr and earn money. Iran rout also saves alot of money.


The Gwadar project is not new. Not many ppl knw abt the "Blue Prints" of Gwadr project. Its not hidden story but no one really informed any one and Pak govt dint care to leak the reality out;

The Gwadar port was actually planed by the Soviet's in 1970s. Since USSR had become 2nd largest threat after India, relations had gone bad. USSR however, needed Gwadr badly to drain its oil (including that of Central Asian countries it held) via warn sea in the South. The relations of Iran with west went cold after Islamic revolution and Iran was also not establishing good relations with USSR (It was still on the Iranian "Evil" list). Hence, no one would port at Iran. India was too far and not strategicaly located. What was left in the option was Pakistan > Balochistan > Gwadar....hence they started planning on Blue prints on Gwadar (with Pakistan un-aware). Somehow the Pakistani intelegence got hold of the information (some sources say it was informed by Chinese). This was reported to General Zia and the Strategic department of the Pak amry some how concluded that "USSR will attack Afghanistan" (in order to get to Gwadar). This was informed to Americans and Americans intelegence assessed that invasion may really take place & it did take place. The major thing not infromed here is that USSR offered kingdom and alot of money to 2 unnamed Baloch tribal chief if they help defect Balochistan from Pakistan via a civil war. lucky for Pakistan they denied USSR's offer, informed it to Pak govt and declared Jihad of USSR.

USSR suffered defeat in Afghanistan & later in 1991 it broke up. In 1993-94 China some how got hold of Gwadar project "Blue Prints" made by USSR. They were showed to Pak govt and both decided to build on it since it will now be possible for China and Pak to drain oil from newly freed central Asian countries. Some modifications were made to the project. Pakistan wanted to invite USA into the project as well, but thanks to a democrate govt in USA relations werent going that warm and good.

The modifications made by China later revealed military/Naval advantages of the port. This is what took America and India by storm. The military/naval aspects are stamped as PAk-China merchant Navy deployment.
The other side of this is the Chitagong port in Bangladesh. PLAAN would be based in the Bay of Bengal (in the East of India) and at Gwadr (in the West of India) and the continious movement of PLAAN & PN (also BN) from one point to another means tht these joint navies will continiously pass through south of India, thus capable of blocking entire indian sea.

[No wounder India wants patriots (may be to counter chinese nuke-sabs BMs and CMs--just in case) and F-18s (just in case to counter PLAAN ships) --- various features of Gwadar's impact on India and US were givin in the "TIMES" magazine]

The current terrorist activities in Balochistan are also part of this ... I'll not drag it cause it could become too political (for some minority members here).
 

DPRKUnderground

Junior Member
Finn McCool said:
Is the Spruance armed with the VLS and the Tomahawks? I doubt that it is, but you never know.

The PN and the IN are now much more equal. However, they both have ships they may not be able to protect. The IN has its carrier, and IMO the IN does not have the SAM and ASW capability to protect it. The PN will need to protect the Spruance, and it may have problems with protecting it. But I guess that is what the Perrys are for. Really all the PN needs is the capability to defend the Arabian Sea and prevent the IN from blockading Pakistan. So this purchase is a real advance for the PN. It gives it more ASM capability and more survivability. Sea defence.

The US and China are both competeing for influence in Pakistan. Personally, I think that the US should try to make Pakistan into a "nuetral state" to avoid the possiblity of a proxy US-Chinese war through Pakistan and India.

The Spruance does have VLS and can fire Tomahawks. I don't think the Spruance will need that much air defense support if the US is willing to put the SM-2 with it. And hopefully the Perrys will have the Sea Sparrow.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
ArjunMk1 said:
I seriously doudt abt the goodies that will come with the ship. Since every Pak system will go into Chinese hand , I thing US will provide no cutting edge tech to Pakistan !!!

Theres nothing impressive on the ships the U.s might sell to pakistan that china doesnt already have. Its not like the U.s is going to sell an arleigh burke...

Plus, pakistan cant afford the kind of equipment that china would want, save for JDAMS and small toys.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
DPRKUnderground said:
The Spruance does have VLS and can fire Tomahawks. I don't think the Spruance will need that much air defense support if the US is willing to put the SM-2 with it. And hopefully the Perrys will have the Sea Sparrow.
what's the point? The Americans aren't going to sell Tomahawks to Pakistan. Only Britain and Netherlands got clearance for that. If anything, it would be better if Pakistan can somehow fit their own missiles on it. SM-2? US is not going to sell it and Pakistan can't afford it.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
You're right TP. Obviously, the PN is not gonna get Tomahawks. However, they might recieve Harpoons. I can see that happening. Also, the SM-2 is doubtful. I don't know if the Spruance is armed with SM-2s, but I don't think it is. Probably it would operate in conjunction with the Perrys which are armed with SM-1s, so they will be able to protect it. Like I said before, the Pakistanis are not going to need a large offensive capability. So they should build their navy into what the PLAN has now, with quite a few diesel subs and ships with good ASM capability. That would be to prevent the Indians from gaining control of the Arabian Sea and cutting Pakistan off from the outside world. It would also prevent them from using their carriers (I'm counting the Admiral Gorshakov or whatever that thing is called) for support of land operations. Essentially all the PN has to do is defend a small area of sea, for which they need good ASM capability, some diesel submarines, and credible SAMs to give them survivability. So this is an excellent acquisition foir them
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Guys,

just wanted to add few things here. IMHO PN won't be getting Sprunace. There are quite few insiders (pshamim on sindefence) who would be able to throw some light on it. The main problem is logistics, modifications, operating cost and then still you have all your eggs in one basket (too much capabilty and responsibilty that comes with capabilty) in one platform which will force enemy to target it specificaly and makes it harder to spread capabilty.

Looks like Pn is more interested in frigates (OHPs high end complemented by Ellis and F-22p at lower end)
 
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