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MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
shen said:
It is interesting how this protest movement is so differently received by the Chinese people compare to 1989. Back then, there were genuine widespread sympathy for the students protesters across the population from party insiders, to workers and intellectuals. Now almost everybody hate them. What is different? What changed?
Is there a leader like Szeto Wah among the HK opposition today? Now there is man who although not a friend of Beijing, is also not a puppet of colonial powers.
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The short answer to that is: NO.

The long answer to that is: after the death of Szeto Wah, the opposition no longer has any character who has the same degree of integrity, nor the same pragmatism.

So after the death of Szeto Wah, though we've seen lots of new faces popped up in the opposition camp, the overall quality of the camp actually deteriorates very sharply, as the rise of fascism in the radical spectrum and the "death of moderates" speaks volume of this disappointing trend. If you ask me, the "torch" didn't pass on, but they snuffed it out themselves, then lit it with a false flame and shamelessly claim it's still the real deal.

Personally, for 20 years I've been more sympathetic towards the pan-democratic cause, but from 2011 onwards, that camp has the smell of rot so obvious that only the most deluded still sided with them. It's from then on I found myself lean towards conservative camp and characters like Regina Ip, who at least seems fresh and have more sense than them lot; and from 2014 onwards, I couldn't believe that I'd use words like "bleeding heart liberals" against those who sided with the Yellow Ribbon goons, many were long time friends and relatives who now, should opportunity present itself, I'd bayonet them on the spot with pleasure.
 
wtlh

wtlh

Junior Member
shen said:
It is interesting how this protest movement is so differently received by the Chinese people compare to 1989. Back then, there were genuine widespread sympathy for the students protesters across the population from party insiders, to workers and intellectuals. Now almost everybody hate them. What is different? What changed?
Is there a leader like Szeto Wah among the HK opposition today? Now there is man who although not a friend of Beijing, is also not a puppet of colonial powers.
Click to expand...

Probably because (in no particular order):

1) 89 did not turn out very well. And the government had proven that they were on the right-side, and that the student leaders all became, in the eyes of the Chinese population, rather treacherous and pioneers of anti-China haters.

2) Student protests that happened elsewhere in the world since then did not turn out well, nor did them bring any benefit to the nations.

3) People are now a lot more pragmatic and less political. It is better to have things done than discussing things to death. And it is not like there is no hope for a better life in China and in HK. On the contrary, people's view of the future is probably more positive than most other regions including the developed nations.

4) People already question the value of "democracy", with the unavoidable examples of countless failed democratic systems around the world, and the deadlock and inability to get things done observed in the established and once thought to be prosperous democratic nations such as the US, UK, Japan etc. The Chinese people are no longer in a closed society, more and more see the world with their own eyes and experiences.

5) The way the OC protesters have acted from the beginning and the flavour of their movement are not attractive to any Chinese outside of their supporter groups. While the protests are about "democracy", there is a rather obvious and strong xenophobia and local protectionist undertone. And with this, the OC is seen as anti-mainland and separatist as much as anything else. Just like the pan-green in Taiwan will only receive support from those inside Taiwan, OC is very unlikely to receive support from the Chinese population outside the "HK natives" group. The 89 protests, on the other hand, started from a rather constructive note, and only deteriorated afterwards.

6) These OC protesters already have comparatively privileged lives in the eyes of most Chinese citizens. It is difficult for a mainland Chinese to resonate with the so called problems and issues these student protesters are raising. The stated problems are seen more as moaning about entitlements. And their big talk only inversely matched by their inability to take real hardship reinforces the "spoilt kid" image.

7) The protesters offered no solutions whatsoever to any of the problems in HK, or those raised by themselves. And after 2 months of disruption, they became part of the problem to people's lives. They hurt businesses and drove out investments. The movement has even managed to alienate the demographic that are likely to be the most natural supporters: the poor and the small business owners who had been hard done by HK's economic structure. The protesters slogans became rather repetitive and hollow within just a few days, and their demands became more and more unreasonable and erratic. It became clear soon that these protesters will not be offering any bettering of lives in HK.

8) Colour revolutions, Arab spring, Ukraine, even the turmoils in Thailand and the collapse of USSR are still very fresh in people's minds.
 
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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The reason Chinese people don't seem to care much about democracy these days is because it was never democracy they wanted, but prosperity.

For decades, people around the world had fallen for the western propaganda that insists prosperity is only possible through democracy. So people who wanted prosperity demanded democracy because they thought one would lead to the other.

It wasn't ideology that brought down the USSR, but rather the bread cues.

People in the west would furiously deny it, but all the facts point to them all having been thoroughly brain washed and indoctrinated into total obedience towards democracy. No one dares to question the ideal or practicality of democrasy. If something doesn't work, its the politicians, never the system.

How else could you explain the inherent paradox of politicians being consistently the most hated and least trusted people in opinion poles, yet people singing the praises of democrasy every chance they get?

For anyone who has lived through it or seen old fashioned Chinese movies, the similarities between how the western media today would desperately attribute every gain or success to democrasy is hillariously similar to how soldiers in old war movies would praise the party with a gleam in their eyes for all their accomplishments.

These days, the western propaganda doesn't work nearly as well because China puts the lie to the core tenant of the church of democracy that you can only be successful and prosperous if you give yourself to democray and accept democracy as your lord and saviour.

Unsurprisingly, that is also why hardcore democrasy fanatics in the west hate China so much and go out of their way to try and belittle and attack China every chance they get.
 
X

xiabonan

Junior Member
shen said:
It is interesting how this protest movement is so differently received by the Chinese people compare to 1989. Back then, there were genuine widespread sympathy for the students protesters across the population from party insiders, to workers and intellectuals. Now almost everybody hate them. What is different? What changed?
Is there a leader like Szeto Wah among the HK opposition today? Now there is man who although not a friend of Beijing, is also not a puppet of colonial powers.
Click to expand...

A more appropriate question, in my opinion, should be "what has not changed?"

Almost everything's different. In the 1980s Chinese people witnessed the collapse of communist ideologies, and realised that the West is not some "capitalist hell" where people are suffering and dying, and pretty much all the opposite is true. That generation of Chinese people experienced the collapse of ideological beliefs, and witnessed the stark contrast in living standards. While the Westerners enjoy abundant supply of goods the Chinese people are starving to death. Furthermore, corruption is rampant and people everywhere were disillusioned. In short, the communist paradise is gone, and people realised they've long been fooled.

It's only natural that people blamed the political system and questioned the CCP's rule. Many firmly believed that democracy could make China as prosperous as the West and that the West would help China and her people to achieve that goal.

Then many things happened in the 90s. The USSR collapsed and the Chinese saw that the Russians and Eastern Europeans did not get what was promised by democracy. In 1999 Chinese embassy was bombed by the US, and in 2001 the SCS plane collision happened. The Chinese finally understood that the U.S. will not wholeheartedly help China to become prosperous.

Then another decade or so passed. The 2008 crisis happened. Chinese citizens suddenly realised that the Western system has its downfalls as well.

Then there came the Arab spring, and people saw that democracy or revolution once again, did not deliver economic prosperity.

The Chinese were disillusioned once again. All of a sudden many Chinese realised that they now have what they always envied about the West. Skyscrapers, state-of-the-art infrastructure, a comfortable apartment, and a car that takes you everywhere. Many started travelling overseas and they saw for themselves that the West is not a paradise either. There's still all sorts of problems, economic ones, social ones, political ones. Maybe still better than China in many ways, but it's no longer heaven and hell as it used to be.

Today, the Chinese people value stability, they cherish this prosperity and higher than ever standard of living, and they want even better standard of living.

In short, the Chinese of 1980s had nothing to lose, they're willing to take that risk and fight for a better future. The Chinese people today have too many strings attached--and few people would want to, nor has the incentive, to take that risk and fight for "democracy".

Now, if you were to make a choice, tell me whether you would choose slightly restrictive governing, but highly likely a better tomorrow; or to risk your freedom maybe even your life, to fight for a future that even you're not sure of?

Personally, I'll take the first one any day.
 
M

mr.bean

Junior Member
MwRYum said:
Probably that coveted(?) "Time Magazine Person of The Year 2014" title, and Nobel Peace Price not so far down the pipeline, which to him it's all within reach now...and running out of tricks, now playing that old hunger strike card, but seriously you would never find him in any mortal danger from starved to death, as hunger strike in HK is something like this:

10422552_841665662541474_2097698666377557247_n.jpg


Laughable, eh?

The only game changer now available to them, would be to wear suicide vest packed with C4 and throw themselves at the PLA Garrison HQ just opposite the GovHQ, since they don't dare to set themselves on fire, y'know.
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hahahahaha.....that is a good picture man! i'm gonna use that for my wallpaper. that's hongkong "pro democracy" style hunger strike......with a bowl of congee snuck in between fist pumping and slogan chanting sessions for the foreign media.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
MwRYum said:
10422552_841665662541474_2097698666377557247_n.jpg


Laughable, eh?
Click to expand...

LOL, I hope this picture is making its due rounds on social media. This is a great visual example of the hypocrisy, conceit, and attempted deceit that these protesters represent.

They verbally abuse and with makeshift weapons physically charge the police then accuse the police response of charging back, using batons and pepper spray as "excessive force"; they block traffic and businesses, and harass the majority of people who don't support them while purporting to represent "the people of Hong Kong"; they offer no alternatives on handling the practical problems facing Hong Kong and are unable to even conduct a vote within its own ranks yet accuse the Hong Kong authorities of being incompetent and claim China's democratization of Hong Kong as limiting democracy.

plawolf said:
The reason Chinese people don't seem to care much about democracy these days is because it was never democracy they wanted, but prosperity.

For decades, people around the world had fallen for the western propaganda that insists prosperity is only possible through democracy. So people who wanted prosperity demanded democracy because they thought one would lead to the other.

It wasn't ideology that brought down the USSR, but rather the bread cues.

People in the west would furiously deny it, but all the facts point to them all having been thoroughly brain washed and indoctrinated into total obedience towards democracy. No one dares to question the ideal or practicality of democrasy. If something doesn't work, its the politicians, never the system.

How else could you explain the inherent paradox of politicians being consistently the most hated and least trusted people in opinion poles, yet people singing the praises of democrasy every chance they get?

For anyone who has lived through it or seen old fashioned Chinese movies, the similarities between how the western media today would desperately attribute every gain or success to democrasy is hillariously similar to how soldiers in old war movies would praise the party with a gleam in their eyes for all their accomplishments.

These days, the western propaganda doesn't work nearly as well because China puts the lie to the core tenant of the church of democracy that you can only be successful and prosperous if you give yourself to democray and accept democracy as your lord and saviour.

Unsurprisingly, that is also why hardcore democrasy fanatics in the west hate China so much and go out of their way to try and belittle and attack China every chance they get.
Click to expand...

It's not just Chinese people who chooses prosperity and stability when capitalism and democracy conflict. Look at the popular response among Americans to the Occupy Wall Street protests in the US (the protest movement which inspired the protesters in Hong Kong), the core complaint of those protests was that big business and mega-rich interests have hijacked the government and democratic system but the majority of the population choose to overlook that as long as they have a decent chance getting a comfortable enough piece of the pie without having to do extra work bothering with politics.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
10422552_841665662541474_2097698666377557247_n.jpg


That's because "soup is NOT a meal" - Jerry Seinfeld :p

Therefore in their small minded world they're still in a "hunger" strike.
 
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