News on China's scientific and technological development.

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WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Hi WTAN,

Is SMIC officially sanction? from what I read from the post of AndrewS is that the US only warn suppliers of SMIC supplying the Chinese military? If they're not sanction then SMIC cant supply Huawei?

from AndrewS

Looks like SMIC is not actually on the Entity List.

The US is *warning* US suppliers they can't ship controlled items to SMIC, which could be for military use.

www.bbc.co.uk

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The commerce department writes to suppliers, warning of risks linked to the Chinese military.
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I think the US Government doesn't regard SMIC to be as great a threat as Huawei so thats why they are not officially on the Entitiy List.
However the US Govt now requires US Companies or all Companies that use US Technology to apply for a License before they are allowed to supply SMIC. And of course all the License applications will be rejected.
So basically SMIC is already under sanction as they will not be able to get parts and supplies for their FAB machinery.
SMIC also apparently lost the business of its overseas customers like Qualcomm etc. so they will now have to rely on selling to China based customers.
Thats why i think SMIC will now be very eager to supply Huawei with its 14nm Chips and even N+1 Chips when they are ready.

This restriction on SMIC by the US Government has basically destroyed the business of ASML, KLA Tencor, LAM etc in China. No Chinese FAB would want to place orders with these companies for future projects.
Even the Businesses of Japanese and European Semiconductor Machinery companies will be affected if they cannot guarantee that they will not be under US influence. China spent USD 13 billion last year on Semiconductor machinery and these sales will all go to Chinese manufacturers from now on.

I suppose ASML, LAM, KLA Tencor together with Japanese and European companies will now have to join the thousands of other US Companies sueing the Trump Admin for compensation and losses in revenue from their trade policies toward China.
 
M

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
crash8pilot said:
Society runs on data, and 5G completely knocks the door down in terms of its fast/efficient/effective ability to share such data. That's why countries are desperate and fixated on 5G, especially when China is at the forefront of the race.
Click to expand...
Most of those improvements could also have been addressed with fiber, WiFi and mmWave point-to-point links, all of which have existed for quite some time now.
 
M

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
WTAN said:
This restriction on SMIC by the US Government has basically destroyed the business of ASML, KLA Tencor, LAM etc in China. No Chinese FAB would want to place orders with these companies for future projects.
Even the Businesses of Japanese and European Semiconductor Machinery companies will be affected if they cannot guarantee that they will not be under US influence. China spent USD 13 billion last year on Semiconductor machinery and these sales will all go to Chinese manufacturers from now on.

I suppose ASML, LAM, KLA Tencor together with Japanese and European companies will now have to join the thousands of other US Companies sueing the Trump Admin for compensation and losses in revenue from their trade policies toward China.
Click to expand...
Yes there is damage to ASML and others, but given the tiny share Chinese companies have in the Chinese market (~15%), they will manage. SMIC probably accounts for less than 5% of ASML’s revenue. It’s the long term growth that they will miss out on.
 
W

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Max Demian said:
Yes there is damage to ASML and others, but given the tiny share Chinese companies have in the Chinese market (~15%), they will manage. SMIC probably accounts for less than 5% of ASML’s revenue. It’s the long term growth that they will miss out on.
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No Chinese FAB will buy "any" equipment from these Foreign Manufacturers from now on. It is just too risky especially when the equipment costs millions of dollars.
At best, they will just buy parts to continue operating the existing machinery.
They will spend money buying locally made equivalents.
SMEE is ripping out foreign equipment in its existing FABs and replacing it with local machinery wherever possible.
Its new FABs under construction use Localised machinery.
 
A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
crash8pilot said:
I'm going to present the other side of the coin from the technical AESA/PESA frequency wave band mumble-jumble.

.....
Society runs on data, and 5G completely knocks the door down in terms of its fast/efficient/effective ability to share such data. That's why countries are desperate and fixated on 5G, especially when China is at the forefront of the race.
Click to expand...
The non mm wavelength spectrum of 5G gives the same capacity like the 4G, so there is not so much difference.

The remaining stuff ,like uber and so on is not so significant, the ordering of a transport could be done by even text messages , the bandwidth requirement of those stuff is insignificant.

Currently for any company the bottleneck to data analysis is not the amount if data that it can collect , but rather than the computational power, manpower to write softwires and understating/model to analyse it .

The main thing is again : the mobile towers could be used for airspace monitoring, the 5G with mm wavelength beamforming will be more capable to do that then the 4G, but the 1/2/3/4/5 g is capable to do that.

I think the main target is to prevent the Chinese companies to deliver any base station technology, the 5G is just an opportunity for that .


daifo said:
14nm is 5-7 year old cpu tech. No owner of cloud servers or pc or phone or car or anything want chips that are lower in processing power, runs hotter , uses more energy, and takes more space than others in the free market. This type of mentality will bring China back decades. It China wants to be the superpower and world manufacturing/tech hub, there is no surrendering till it reach equilibrium with what is on the free market.
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If the 14nm is so old, and the 7nm is require less power, then why the 7nm ICs run on the same clockpseed like the 45nm ones ?

I mean, by the original Intel roadmap the 45nm would make possible to run on 7GHz without nitrogen cooling , but it never materialised since.

So, where is my 150 GHz CPU ?
 
horse

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Anlsvrthng said:
What is this fixation with the 5G ?
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Two things basically.
1. technological advancement
2. money
Taken together, that will get a lot of people excited.

Read about something the other day, someone had this idea.

You got three simultaneously happening at once.

1. massive data
2. A.I.
3. 5G networks
4. industrial robots

Put the data, with AI, through the 5G network, and you can make the factory robot make anything you want.

Cars, planes, ships, widgets, anything. No need to retrain the worker on the assembly line, the assembly just updates itself over the network, with the data and AI, and vola! Same factory making any product they want.

This sounds revolutionary and very feasible.

We are getting hints of this, of this kind of future.

Huawei, telecom equipment was their main business. Then cell phones, HiSilcone IC design, laptops, servers, and cloud servers, and now even chip fabrication.

Google was doing stuff like this, as they had their search engine, and their autonomous driving car attempts. But that was all software base, only coders were needed.

Huawei, what they are trying to do now, that sure looks like the factory operations of the future.
 
horse

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
In the past, like 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or 20 years, the factory specialized in their products they made. That made sense, you become good at one thing, and keep doing it.

Actually, for those who studied economics, we going back to the original source material, and that is Adam Smith and his invisible hand.

Now consider what will come next.

Consider the data, the AI, the 5G, all at the disposal for the factory robot, the blueprints and know how all there, after you pay licensing fee.

You make your robot make anything you want.

The invisible hand will retire!

:p
 
E

emblem21

Major
Registered Member
WTAN said:
I think the US Government doesn't regard SMIC to be as great a threat as Huawei so thats why they are not officially on the Entitiy List.
However the US Govt now requires US Companies or all Companies that use US Technology to apply for a License before they are allowed to supply SMIC. And of course all the License applications will be rejected.
So basically SMIC is already under sanction as they will not be able to get parts and supplies for their FAB machinery.
SMIC also apparently lost the business of its overseas customers like Qualcomm etc. so they will now have to rely on selling to China based customers.
Thats why i think SMIC will now be very eager to supply Huawei with its 14nm Chips and even N+1 Chips when they are ready.

This restriction on SMIC by the US Government has basically destroyed the business of ASML, KLA Tencor, LAM etc in China. No Chinese FAB would want to place orders with these companies for future projects.
Even the Businesses of Japanese and European Semiconductor Machinery companies will be affected if they cannot guarantee that they will not be under US influence. China spent USD 13 billion last year on Semiconductor machinery and these sales will all go to Chinese manufacturers from now on.

I suppose ASML, LAM, KLA Tencor together with Japanese and European companies will now have to join the thousands of other US Companies sueing the Trump Admin for compensation and losses in revenue from their trade policies toward China.
Click to expand...
If these companies end up going into bankruptcy or even fire thousands of there workers as a minimum, well you can’t feel to sorry for them. If they fail to move trump in any real way, they will have to come up with an alternative since without one, well you can now say that Trump has single handledly cause such a loss of profit for these firms that you can bet that they are looking for alternative options now since the USA in the future is going to be an extremely toxic place to do business or buy any of there goods. This breach of trust is not one that the USA can get back any time soon and none of these things is going to want to make any nation want to help the USA recover from this economic global melt down.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
Max Demian said:
Actually, I was able to get over 110Mb/s sustained over 4G at a different location. This is already well beyond the threshold to watch 4K video. And what’s the point of doing that on a smartphone?
Click to expand...


True ..... like Bill Gates said that nobody would need more than 640KB RAM :rolleyes:

5G main benefits is not only speed, but also latency, redundancy, IOT and much smarter. Especially Chinese 5G with AESA with longer range
 
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