News on China's scientific and technological development.
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Hi WTAN,
This machine will allow China to be self sufficient in producing 22nm - 28nm Chips.
So the main problem is the 14nm , 7nm and 5nm chips, so within 2 years we can say up to 7nm is achievable? 2022 China is at least 2 generation behind TSMC 2nm?
SMIC is stupid enough not to read the leaves, they should cancel at once those US equipment ordered and localized at once or else they deserved to be shot.
Yup.....Huawei should be able to produce 7nm within 2 years. It will get the SMEE 28nm Immersion Litho machine next year and by then the Localised 7nm Manufacturing Equipment should be ready.
crosspost from FairAndUnbiased (pakistan defense forum)
65 nm processes are already good enough to maintain industrial and automotive electronics. for industrial electronics, many still run on 8-bit microcontrollers like ATMegas which are built on 3 micron processes. Even the high end industrial mixed signal chips such as NXP i.MX 5 with 800 MHz clock speed (which is sufficient for 99.99999% of embedded software tasks) can be built on 65 nm.
Also, do you mean no US tech, or no foreign tech? With foreign, non-US tech, there's Nikon for lithography which is suitable for 7 nm. Mixed signal chips can be simulated with Empyrean software, and even Samsung and Western Digital use Empyrean. Chemistry side (etch/deposition) in China is moving towards being globally competitive with AMEC and Naura.
For digital logic, requirements are higher due to high density, high speed, but it isn't magic. It is harder to go from no fab to 200 mm, 0.18 micron fab, than it is to go from a 0.18 micron to 14 nm fab.
it is definitely enough for 5G:
it is enough for some AI:
it is not enough for microprocessors competitive with Intel or AMD as of 2020. It is enough for microcontrollers in mixed signal applications and legacy microprocessors. Remember that 65 nm is late 2000's for non-TSMC companies like Intel, with cores up to 3 GHz clock speeds possible.
It is not that far off. Even today Intel only recently transitioned from 32 nm to 14 nm.
I think you have an extreme overestimation of the computational requirements of 99% of electronics. Alot of the die shrinks recently are not for increased raw performance but due to mobile constraints on power usage and size. if you don't give a shit about power usage and size i.e. stationary applications hooked up to external power, the range of possibilities expands drastically.
65 nm processes are already good enough to maintain industrial and automotive electronics. for industrial electronics, many still run on 8-bit microcontrollers like ATMegas which are built on 3 micron processes. Even the high end industrial mixed signal chips such as NXP i.MX 5 with 800 MHz clock speed (which is sufficient for 99.99999% of embedded software tasks) can be built on 65 nm.
Also, do you mean no US tech, or no foreign tech? With foreign, non-US tech, there's Nikon for lithography which is suitable for 7 nm. Mixed signal chips can be simulated with Empyrean software, and even Samsung and Western Digital use Empyrean. Chemistry side (etch/deposition) in China is moving towards being globally competitive with AMEC and Naura.
For digital logic, requirements are higher due to high density, high speed, but it isn't magic. It is harder to go from no fab to 200 mm, 0.18 micron fab, than it is to go from a 0.18 micron to 14 nm fab.
it is definitely enough for 5G:
it is enough for some AI:
it is not enough for microprocessors competitive with Intel or AMD as of 2020. It is enough for microcontrollers in mixed signal applications and legacy microprocessors. Remember that 65 nm is late 2000's for non-TSMC companies like Intel, with cores up to 3 GHz clock speeds possible.
It is not that far off. Even today Intel only recently transitioned from 32 nm to 14 nm.
I think you have an extreme overestimation of the computational requirements of 99% of electronics. Alot of the die shrinks recently are not for increased raw performance but due to mobile constraints on power usage and size. if you don't give a shit about power usage and size i.e. stationary applications hooked up to external power, the range of possibilities expands drastically.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
I guess they delay the release of Harmony because Huawei is not yet satisfy with the performance. But it is getting close
Huawei's Richard Yu says HarmonyOS can now reach 70-80% of Android levels
2020-09-07 17:06:57 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
Huawei has invested more than 100 million RMB in HarmonyOS to improve its experience, and it's now up to 70-80% of Android, according to Huawei's consumer business CEO Richard Yu.
Improvements to HarmonyOS are happening every day, every week, every month, Yu said recently according to Sina Tech.
He said, "If the US continues to block it in the future so that all Chinese companies can't use the Google ecosystem, we'll be able to sell this ecosystem globally and build up the alternative to Google."
Since May 16 last year, Huawei cannot use chips and technology from the United States. "We have made preparations for nearly a decade to develop our own chips, software and supply. The impact of the first round of sanctions on Huawei did not reach crisis level, only the part that I am responsible for is more affected. But in overseas markets, we can't continue to use the Google ecosystem, which has a disastrous impact on Android users."
But he also mentioned that it didn't have much of an impact on the carrier business. "This part of the business went down by 60% and then recovered some to 40%. It had been growing at a high rate before the sanctions. Last year, if there were no sanctions, Huawei would have been not only number one, but substantially far ahead."
For the second round of US sanctions on May 15 this year, Richard Yu said for all of Huawei's own production of chips, as long as they use any US technology, even if the production line is only 0.1 percent of US technology, can not be produced.
"The Kirin chip has been developed over a decade and a half, and at the beginning it lagged seriously behind, and eventually it achieved leadership, but now it can't be produced. This is a very big problem for us, and our competitive advantage has become a disadvantage. We have invested a lot and have a huge R&D team to support. But we can still use other chips."
"But on August 17 this year, the United States came out with an even tougher measure, no matter who's chips can't be sold to Huawei. As long as it uses even 0.1 percent of US technology, it can't be sold. This has created a huge crisis for us. We are working night and day to solve these problems. "He argues that it makes very little sense for this sanction to go into effect immediately, and that "stopping it after September 15 would be simply disastrous for us."
How to deal with the situation Richard Yu says it needs to catch up where it lags behind, "It can still be sustained for a while. It is indeed entering a critical period where we can't produce our own chips and others can't sell us chips."
He believes that such US sanctions are very unjustified in today's globalized world.
"If China adopts the US sanctions, it can stop the production of electronic products all over the world, and make US planes and cars stop. For example, the earpiece and microphone on a cell phone, China has more than 90 percent market share, the battery has more than 80 percent... People look down on little parts, but today, with globalization, China absolutely has a say in many areas, but it's not doing that."
Huawei's Richard Yu says HarmonyOS can now reach 70-80% of Android levels
2020-09-07 17:06:57 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
Huawei has invested more than 100 million RMB in HarmonyOS to improve its experience, and it's now up to 70-80% of Android, according to Huawei's consumer business CEO Richard Yu.
Improvements to HarmonyOS are happening every day, every week, every month, Yu said recently according to Sina Tech.
He said, "If the US continues to block it in the future so that all Chinese companies can't use the Google ecosystem, we'll be able to sell this ecosystem globally and build up the alternative to Google."
Since May 16 last year, Huawei cannot use chips and technology from the United States. "We have made preparations for nearly a decade to develop our own chips, software and supply. The impact of the first round of sanctions on Huawei did not reach crisis level, only the part that I am responsible for is more affected. But in overseas markets, we can't continue to use the Google ecosystem, which has a disastrous impact on Android users."
But he also mentioned that it didn't have much of an impact on the carrier business. "This part of the business went down by 60% and then recovered some to 40%. It had been growing at a high rate before the sanctions. Last year, if there were no sanctions, Huawei would have been not only number one, but substantially far ahead."
For the second round of US sanctions on May 15 this year, Richard Yu said for all of Huawei's own production of chips, as long as they use any US technology, even if the production line is only 0.1 percent of US technology, can not be produced.
"The Kirin chip has been developed over a decade and a half, and at the beginning it lagged seriously behind, and eventually it achieved leadership, but now it can't be produced. This is a very big problem for us, and our competitive advantage has become a disadvantage. We have invested a lot and have a huge R&D team to support. But we can still use other chips."
"But on August 17 this year, the United States came out with an even tougher measure, no matter who's chips can't be sold to Huawei. As long as it uses even 0.1 percent of US technology, it can't be sold. This has created a huge crisis for us. We are working night and day to solve these problems. "He argues that it makes very little sense for this sanction to go into effect immediately, and that "stopping it after September 15 would be simply disastrous for us."
How to deal with the situation Richard Yu says it needs to catch up where it lags behind, "It can still be sustained for a while. It is indeed entering a critical period where we can't produce our own chips and others can't sell us chips."
He believes that such US sanctions are very unjustified in today's globalized world.
"If China adopts the US sanctions, it can stop the production of electronic products all over the world, and make US planes and cars stop. For example, the earpiece and microphone on a cell phone, China has more than 90 percent market share, the battery has more than 80 percent... People look down on little parts, but today, with globalization, China absolutely has a say in many areas, but it's not doing that."
D
Deleted member 15887
Guest
So guys, what the update on SMIC? Can they make it? I heard their stock collapsed 20% today. Really concerning.
This is why I keep emphasizing you need BASIC research. All these fancy products China is coming up are derivative technologies that depend on more underlying American technologies. Not all of this is open source. A lot of it is corporate proprietary. A company like 3M doesn't have any flashy products, but it has 60,000 patents and thousands of scientists working for it every day studying things down to the physical, chemical, materials level.
It's not about the latest flashy chips, planes, engines, AI, 5G, or anything else. Unless China ramps up a massive infrastructure to spend at the ground level theoretical science level, it's always going to be dependent. That means paying a lot of people to sit around and do science without any proven or immediate payoff.
everything now a day is based on basic research at least 20 years ago. Even the US is questioning the utility of such basic research because they are being BFTO'd by China. And basic research is the easiest to steal. Don't tell me you think EUV is the result of basic research lulz.
This clown saying that China should change course because the American throw a pebble on her path LMAO.
Next he is going to tell us China's state capitalism is inefficient and not competitive because the US sanctions some companies. Don't you trump rally to attend today?
What you’re describing isn’t what basic research is...