News on China's scientific and technological development.

cbl21 said:

But it is still possible for 14 nm chips to replace 7nm chips in their 5g equipment, no? @localizer

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Yes it's possible, Intel does "die shrinks" in its "tick-tock" model for chip development where they develop a new CPU architecture, then shrink it using the next node. i.e. Sandy Bridge family going from 32nm to 22nm. Intel has hit a roadblock at 14nm so they probably trying to slow down Asia just like zuckerberg did with Tiktok.




Problem is, if SMIC is sanctioned, Huawei might not even have access to 14nm.

Also, 14nm is atleast 1x larger than 7nm in terms of the size of the actual CPU and uses like 50% more power. (Based on my observations from AMD's transition from 14nm to 7nm)





See here, they can fit 2x the transistors in roughly the same area by stepping down from 16nm to 7nm

localizer said:

Yes it's possible, Intel does "die shrinks" in its "tick-tock" model for chip development where they develop a new CPU architecture, then shrink it using the next node. i.e. Sandy Bridge family going from 32nm to 22nm. Intel has hit a roadblock at 14nm so they probably trying to slow down Asia just like zuckerberg did with Tiktok.




Problem is, if SMIC is sanctioned, Huawei might not even have access to 14nm.

Also, 14nm is atleast 1x larger than 7nm in terms of the size of the actual CPU and uses like 50% more power. (Based on my observations from AMD's transition from 14nm to 7nm)

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See here, they can fit 2x the transistors in roughly the same area.

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Okay, but in regards to 14 nm chips, power/space specs aren't as much as a concern for 5G base stations (which are hooked up to the electrical grid and have no space resitrictions) as high-end mobile phones are they?

cbl21 said:

Okay, but in regards to 14 nm chips, power/space specs aren't as much as a concern for 5G base stations (which are hooked up to the electrical grid and have no space resitrictions) as high-end mobile phones are they?

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Yes that is true. The output power should be of little concern if connected to a constant power supply.

But who knows what are some of the design requirements? Maybe they want solar powered base stations in remote areas. Maybe they can't cool the chips well enough if using 14nm or 28nm. Either way, the base stations need to be redesigned.

Right now Huawei is working on their own Fab, hope they can get to 28nm next year and 14nm the year after that.

There is probably lots of talent hunting right now and overseas Chinese will see this as a profitable opportunity to help the motherland.



From what I see, it’s not that Chinese want the easy way out leading to lack of development in certain sectors. It’s that Chinese buyers worship and trust foreign brands more than domestic and there is less investment as a result.

localizer said:

Yes that is true. The output power should be of little concern if connected to a constant power supply.

But who knows what are some of the design requirements? Maybe they want solar powered base stations in remote areas. Maybe they can't cool the chips well enough if using 14nm or 28nm. Either way, the base stations need to be redesigned.

Right now Huawei is working on their own Fab, hope they can get to 28nm next year and 14nm the year after that.

There is probably lots of talent hunting right now and overseas Chinese will see this as a profitable opportunity to help the motherland.

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how likely is this redesign of their 5G bases station technology going to hurt their technological lead over Erricson/Nokia in 5G technology?

cbl21 said:

how likely is this redesign of their 5G bases station technology going to hurt their technological lead over Erricson/Nokia in 5G technology?

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Depends on cost and geopolitics. Technically speaking, they will still lead I believe. Where 7nm matters is the actual 5g clients like smartphones.

Huawei smartphones need 7nm or 5nm to be competitive.

localizer said:

Depends on cost and geopolitics. Technically speaking, they will still lead I believe. Where 7nm matters is the actual 5g clients like smartphones.

Huawei smartphones need 7nm or 5nm to be competitive.

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localizer said:

Yes it's possible, Intel does "die shrinks" in its "tick-tock" model for chip development where they develop a new CPU architecture, then shrink it using the next node. i.e. Sandy Bridge family going from 32nm to 22nm. Intel has hit a roadblock at 14nm so they probably trying to slow down Asia just like zuckerberg did with Tiktok.

View attachment 63184


Problem is, if SMIC is sanctioned, Huawei might not even have access to 14nm.

Also, 14nm is atleast 1x larger than 7nm in terms of the size of the actual CPU and uses like 50% more power. (Based on my observations from AMD's transition from 14nm to 7nm)

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It may take a bit of time but China will eventually catch up in chip making technology. Although I am curious given the amount of effort from the USA to kill Huawei, I honestly wonder what China is going to do to return the favour

localizer said:

Depends on cost and geopolitics. Technically speaking, they will still lead I believe. Where 7nm matters is the actual 5g clients like smartphones.

Huawei smartphones need 7nm or 5nm to be competitive.

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oh so if its not the advanced chips themselves that make Huawei 5G ahead of everyone else, then what other technical aspects of their 5G do make them ahead?

also to add on, I believe Huawei's consumer business isn't really their bread-and-butter, unless I'm mistaken.

cbl21 said:

oh so if its not the advanced chips themselves that make Huawei 5G ahead of everyone else, then what other technical aspects of their 5G do make them ahead?

also to add on, I believe Huawei's consumer business isn't really their bread-and-butter, unless I'm mistaken.

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Huawei’s chip architecture and algorithms and overall base station designs are patented and unique leading to lower costs. Competitors will have to pay licensing fees to use them.

I personally believe they should spin off the smartphone division so it survives. Still election is coming so who knows what will happen.

localizer said:

Huawei’s chip architecture and algorithms are patented and unique. Competitors will have to pay licensing fees to use them.

I personally believe they should spin off the smartphone division so it survives. Still election is coming so who knows what will happen.

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whats the difference between their unbiqitous chip architecture versus the size of chips (7NM vs 14NM) they use in their 5G equipment?