News on China's scientific and technological development.

antiterror13 said:

Espionage is an option .. don't make a mistake ... every country does it, just a matter of whether you have the capability doing it. USA is doing it extensively as they have a huge resources

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It's not espionage when you paid for the machine and you simply study how it works.

It's more of an IP infringement issue if you sell it for profit.

localizer said:

China wanted ASML to deliver the machines so Chinese experts can go over the details of the machine and not have to guess the basics.

It would be better if they delivered then US sanctioned SMIC, then China can disassemble and study in further detail.

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SMIC already has ASML machines, but not the latest models that TSMC and Samsung have?

localizer said:

It's not espionage when you paid for the machine and you simply study how it works.

It's more of an IP infringement issue if you sell it for profit.

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True .. but you couldn't get the machine how would you study it?

ZeEa5KPul said:

Trump doesn't want concessions, he wants China dead. Retaliating now might allow him to win a second term, so China won't retaliate now - end of discussion.

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Of course Trump doesnt want china dead. My view is that they just dont want china to produce (and specially export) network equipment to other countries. This is an crucial strategic area, you know.

Intrepid said:

A second term will separate other countries further from the US and bring them closer to China.

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Dont bank on that.

Weaasel said:

China can pay foreign companies in Japan and Europe to produce chip making equipment and chip making materials to make such equipment and materials from sources thoroughly devoid of US content to supply to Chinese companies like SMIC and Yangtze Memory

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What are those foreign companies and would they be willing to risk US sanctions?

galvatron said:

SMIC already has ASML machines, but not the latest models that TSMC and Samsung have?

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SMIC has ASML DUV machines I believe.

TSMC and Samsung and Intel have the EUV machines. Yet Intel still hasn't been able to mass produce its first EUV product.

antiterror13 said:

True .. but you couldn't get the machine how would you study it?

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People I know who work at TSMC tell me their protocol is to destroy everything in case of mainland invasion. So looks like for EUV China will have to do extra work.

Will need a combination of hardworking researchers and espionage at ASML/TSMC. Or develop its own tech unrelated to EUV.





I've done this type of work before. The 1st thing to do is to get your hands on the machine. Next you need to build your own replica even if it's not up the same quality. Going through this process you will learn a lot. Your future iterations will improve very rapidly. Since China is in constant tension with the West, there isn't room to be modest, you have to take shortcuts.

AndrewS said:

Qualcomm would not emerge stronger in China in the short term in such a scenario.

For low-end and medium-end smartphone chips, there are alternatives from Mediatek and Unisoc for example.

For these sorts of chips, Xiao, Oppo and Vivo will phase out Qualcomm because of the risk.

That just leaves a few high-end smartphone chips, but which Mediatek and Unisoc will be gunning for in the future.

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You are thinking that Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo would have a choice not to buy from Qualcomm. Qualcomm IP extortion would go into full spin if Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo don't buy enough chips to keep it happy.

KYli said:

I would argue Trump has helped China realized its shortcoming and its vulnerability. Without Trump, most Chinese elites are still daydreaming about how to copy and admire American exceptionalism. Although I am not going to argue who is better for China since I don't have a preference to begin with.

I don't care about retaliation. I care about the need of retaliation and the best timing of retaliation. Like I said if you truly believed that Biden is a better alternative, then you don't need to argue with me as not helping Trump is the priority if that is your belief.

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If you think outside of the box, has China not retaliated yet?
The disaster "wink wink"unfolding in the us everyday and its subsequent economic and social catasthrope could easily be avoided had China decided to keep it contained (you know what im talking about)

Did the us saw it coming? Not in their worst nightmare
Did they prepared for it? Not in a million years


Like in boxing the punch you don't see is the punch that hurt you the most

According to these people, China imported several Arf-immersion 1980Di DUV machines:


On ASML's website, it says that the machine is capable of sub 10nm. The new NXT 2000i machine is capable of 7nm and 5nm using Arf-immersion. Also, TSMC's initial N7 and N7P 7nm nodes were done on DUV machines.

China must continue to improve its economy and subsequently pay to Chinese genius to keep them in China. I believe within 10 years, China can catch up 95% to state of the art.

KYli said:

After Japan cut off chemical and materials supplies to Korea due to the WWII dispute, you still think it is a good idea to rely upon Japan and help Japan to advance its semiconductor industry. In addition, Japan doesn't have the most advanced semiconductor equipment as China has already developed the dual-stage Twinscan. Buying materials and sourcing Japanese equipment are fine but helping Japan, which is very unreliable, is just not possible.



Tokyo Electron (Japan), LAM Research (US), ASML (Netherlands), Applied Materials (US), and KLA-Tencor (US) are top semiconductor equipment and materials suppliers. Basically, China needs to rely upon its own if it was cut off from the US. European and Japan suppliers are only secondary and wouldn't fill the void.

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It is not about relying on Japan, but in the short term, while Chinese chip equipment and material makers increase their quantitative and qualitative output of high end chips, China can get around US potential US sanctions by using the facilities of already existing non US equipment and material makers who can make equipment and materials devoid of US equipment.

KYli said:

You are thinking that Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo would have a choice not to buy from Qualcomm. Qualcomm IP extortion would go into full spin if Xiaomi, Oppo and Vivo don't buy enough chips to keep it happy.

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How can they be weaned from Qualcomm and other US companies and purchase a lot more Chinese designed and made content, particularly when it comes to chips?