News on China's scientific and technological development.

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
For people sick and tired of talking about Huawei all day.
I never get sick of talking about Huawei. That is all we should talk about.

If this is 4th generation warfare, then it appears Huawei (and anything related to it) that is the decisive battle.

Shenzhen gets their stand alone 5G network up in Huawei location on Monday this week, and today Friday no one in the western press dares to report it, because they are afraid.

:D
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think Biden's a capable leader either but I think the most immediate effect of a Biden presidency would be a breath of desperately needed fresh air for America's alliances. Immediately, the EU might want to show goodwill to return to the old US leadership and America will embrace that; together, they will create a new, more diplomatic but organized and united front against China. And another effect may be that China might have to show goodwill as well to make it look like everything's water under the bridge after Trump's departure just so China doesn't look like a country stuck on a Trump grudge while the whole world has moved forward. And this goodwill likely encompasses international orders to re-establish global supply chains and globalized supply lines, which America will accept and reciprocate by lifting the tech ban. It might not crush China's new drive for tech independence but it will bleed from it significantly. Right now, China is in full combat mode; get things done as fast as possible, ready for any short term immediate pain. Scientists toiling night and day giving 110% effort under maximal pressure to save the country is exactly what things look like leading to eurika! (For me, it is quite frankly reminiscent of Einstein's final push to complete the Manhattan project.) But if this effort is bled by the influx of foreign components again, the pressure released, the pace might be dropped down to a get-it-done-sometime-in-the-next-few-years rate, and who knows where it goes from there? I want another 4 years of Trump to help China finish this push.


While there is more to it than the lithograph, they are all moving forward and the lithograph is the bottleneck. I bet you it takes nowhere near 5 years for Huawei to come up with a new flagship (if there is any stop at all) and in either case, I'll leave that purchase to another true fan who needs it because I have never spent more than $50 on a phone (secondhand; I don't buy new) and want nothing more than what my basic phone already does.


Yeah, there is no obvious answer to Biden vs Trump. A lot of conflicting reports as to how Biden will deal with China vs Trump.

The current consensus is Biden will continue the tariff policy. Maybe less erratic. Who knows what the case will be. Idk, its really anyone's guess as to how things will play out. But regardless the US dollar will probably remain in place. Will there be a hot war? probably not.

A Trump led US on the other hand will definitely be even more hawkish, maybe heading towards Cold War or real war. This is a high risk and potentially high reward scenario. Trump could very well destroy the US dollars dominant status. But Trump could prevail as well.

The question should be, is China ready for a hot war or cold War with the US right now? Or is it better to cross that bridge later?

I don't have an answer. I am slightly biased towards no, since we still need time to secure the semiconductor supply chain and shore up the financial system.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
US-China: is Huawei ‘too big to fail’?
Washington’s latest sanctions have been likened to a ‘death sentence’ on the telecoms group but some say that is premature


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For Guo Ping, chairman of Chinese technology group Huawei, Monday was a day like any other. In a
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in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen, he painted a rosy picture of how Huawei’s technological prowess and
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would transform the company’s hometown into a global digital showcase city.

Hours later, that promise was shattered — shot down by an announcement from the US government that it will use the global dominance of American technology to
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to
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.

In boardrooms and government offices around the world, the new rules sparked frantic discussions about whether the move would deliver a fatal blow to the $122bn company, how quickly Huawei might fold, and what the collapse of the world’s largest telecoms equipment provider would mean for networks in 170 countries that run on its hardware.


While some analysts spoke of it being a “death sentence”, others wondered what lengths Beijing would be willing to go to protect a company at the heart of recent
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.

One European telecoms executive calls the prospect of the leading supplier in the market collapsing “catastrophic”. Networks are already having to shoulder the cost of reducing the amount of Huawei equipment under growing political pressure in western countries from Australia
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. The burden of a Huawei collapse is most likely to be felt by incumbent telecoms companies like BT, Deutsche Telekom and Swisscom, argues one executive, given their use of the Chinese company’s kit in broadband networks.

But for Washington, this is the climax of a 15-year battle against Huawei that began when the company tried to enter the US market for the first time in the early 2000s.




Longtime observers say the US is getting close to a goal that has proved elusive. “How do you kill Huawei?” asks Duncan Clark, chairman of China technology and telecom advisory company BDA, of the US dilemma. “Like with a worm, you cut off the head and it keeps going.”

Driven by the belief that Huawei could enable the ruling Chinese Communist party and its military to spy on other countries and their companies, undermine their national security and steal their commercial secrets, the US government used every option open to it. It stopped Huawei acquisitions of American companies and assets through its
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. It leaned on leading US telecoms operators not to work with the company and it conducted a Congress-led probe into the firm. It pursued a criminal prosecution which put Meng Wanzhou, Huawei’s chief financial officer and daughter of its founder, under house arrest in Canada, awaiting the outcome of an extradition hearing.

Last year, the administration started targeting Huawei with sanctions, two earlier rounds of which proved porous. This time, industry experts say it is hard to see how Huawei can wriggle out of Washington’s noose.


“Handsets and base stations require semiconductors. These two business lines make up 90 per cent of Huawei’s business; without being able to manufacture these products, the company would no longer look like Huawei,” says Dan Wang, technology analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics, a research firm, in Beijing. Earlier this week, Mr Wang called the new US rules a “death sentence”.




November hope

Death, however, is not imminent. Huawei has been building stockpiles of chips since Washington stepped up the
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two years ago. While industry experts say that
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about it having amassed two years of inventory are overblown, they believe that Huawei has enough chips to keep it going for another six months.

That would take it past
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in early November, and the inauguration of the next US president. Some analysts say the possibility that Donald Trump, whose administration has zeroed in on China as a threat to America, might be voted out of office offers a glimmer of hope to Huawei due to Democratic nominee Joe Biden’s record of a less confrontational stance towards China. Even the latest rules allow for issuance of temporary licences under which chip supplies could resume.

But those hopes are slim. “A lot of people in the Chinese government are looking at [Joe Biden’s lead in the]
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right now. But long-term thinkers in China understand that the policy space for Biden will be limited as well,” says Hosuk Lee-Makiyama, director of the Brussels-based European Centre for International Political Economy, who as a trade lawyer previously investigated Huawei for the EU.


He adds that any potential honeymoon period for Beijing with an incoming Biden administration is unlikely to last because China cannot reverse the key policies and laws which have hardened western governments’ stance against Huawei and China more broadly. At its core is Beijing’s national security law, which requires companies and citizens to assist the security services in whatever they may demand and which has fed fears of spying. Another issue certain to continue to trouble relations is Beijing's move to curb
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, civil rights and rule of law.

Under that scenario, Huawei’s future looks dark. Washington last week stopped rolling over temporary licences for US companies to sell chips to the company. Rules imposed in May, and the additions that followed this week, mean that no company anywhere in the world can sell chips to Huawei directly or indirectly if they were designed using software tools made by US companies including Cadence and Synopsys, or manufactured using equipment from US suppliers such as Applied Materials or LAM Research.

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp, the world’s largest contract chipmaker on whom most chip design houses rely to produce their semiconductors, will stop shipping to Huawei on September 15, the deadline imposed in May. Monday’s additional restrictions also block supplies of any other chips, be it memory chips from South Korea’s Hynix or semiconductors from Dutch company NXP.


“None of these companies is free from US content, the door is slammed shut,” says a European trade official in China.

The
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that British chip design company Arm will be taken over by Nvidia of the US has added to Huawei’s predicament. A person at HiSilicon, Huawei's chip design affiliate, says that if the deal happens, all of the Chinese company’s chip design would be in trouble because its designs are based on Arm-licensed blueprints.

Some of the company’s almost 200,000 employees are
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. “I feel that everyone is quite calm because we still have a lot of projects on hand which are not finished yet, and governmental projects are also coming,” says an employee at Huawei Cloud, adding that the division remains viable.


But experts challenge such claims. Mr Lee-Makiyama says the cloud business, which is much more profitable than Huawei’s devices arm, is in as much trouble as the rest of the group because the server hardware that any cloud services run on needs semiconductors, while much of the cloud software is American, including databases from Oracle and virtualisation services from VMware.

Some observers believe the Chinese government will step in. “Huawei is too big to fail,” says a semiconductor industry executive in Taiwan. “Beijing will surely help them.”

cont...
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
...cont

Building an industry

The question is how. Mr Wang contends that money — Beijing’s time-tested approach to the tech industry — will not do the trick. “The company declared around $53bn in cash and short-term investments in its last annual report, so it has substantial resources. What it lacks are chips. In the short term, it’s not possible to create a semiconductor supply chain that does not touch US technology,” he says.

Some believe Beijing will force Chinese chipmakers — which also continue to rely on US software and equipment — to supply Huawei. “They can reorganise the domestic chip industry in whatever way they like,” says the Taiwanese executive. “You could form an intermediate layer between suppliers and Huawei, and it may be possible to hide your tracks a little.”


However, such a high-risk scheme, in violation of American sanctions, could undermine Beijing’s ultimate aim to build its own semiconductor industry. Trade lawyers predict that any Chinese chipmaker trying to ship to Huawei in violation of US rules will quickly be targeted by US sanctions, hampering Beijing’s quest for technology self-sufficiency.

Customers across Europe are already weaning themselves off Huawei’s equipment — the result of the political pressure exerted by the US. “There is a much bigger risk to using Huawei now due to the microchip sanctions,” says one executive at a leading European telecoms company that has used a large amount of Huawei equipment in the past. “[Huawei’s struggles] will change the balance of power. We need someone like Samsung to step in fast [to supply equipment],” he adds.

Telecoms companies have started to reorganise their plans, particularly for 5G upgrades. The Chinese company, market share of almost 50 per cent of some 4G networks, has largely lost its role as “primary vendor”, with companies including BT and Three turning to Ericsson as an alternative supplier. But four operators contacted by the Financial Times have yet to draw up contingency plans for a scenario in which Huawei collapses, an indication that some in the industry at least see it as resilient even in the face of the latest US onslaught.

Many executives at telecoms carriers argue that networks would not grind to a halt if Huawei were to collapse, but it would rob the industry of the ability to easily maintain networks and probably cause significant disruption to customers due to an inability to upgrade software from the Chinese company and replace faulty equipment. “It would be super painful,” says one executive.

For Huawei, the pain will almost certainly be greater. Industry experts say it is hard to envision how the company could continue running its business in its current form under Washington's seemingly watertight sanctions.

“The image of Huawei is now so associated with the fear of a ‘Red Peril’ that they need to make some trades,” says Mr Clark, adding that the Chinese government was certain to have a role in any restructuring. That, ironically, might transform Huawei into something the US has suspected it to be but the Shenzhen company always emphatically denied: a Chinese state company.

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free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
...cont

Building an industry

The question is how. Mr Wang contends that money — Beijing’s time-tested approach to the tech industry — will not do the trick. “The company declared around $53bn in cash and short-term investments in its last annual report, so it has substantial resources. What it lacks are chips. In the short term, it’s not possible to create a semiconductor supply chain that does not touch US technology,” he says.

Some believe Beijing will force Chinese chipmakers — which also continue to rely on US software and equipment — to supply Huawei. “They can reorganise the domestic chip industry in whatever way they like,” says the Taiwanese executive. “You could form an intermediate layer between suppliers and Huawei, and it may be possible to hide your tracks a little.”


However, such a high-risk scheme, in violation of American sanctions, could undermine Beijing’s ultimate aim to build its own semiconductor industry. Trade lawyers predict that any Chinese chipmaker trying to ship to Huawei in violation of US rules will quickly be targeted by US sanctions, hampering Beijing’s quest for technology self-sufficiency.

Customers across Europe are already weaning themselves off Huawei’s equipment — the result of the political pressure exerted by the US. “There is a much bigger risk to using Huawei now due to the microchip sanctions,” says one executive at a leading European telecoms company that has used a large amount of Huawei equipment in the past. “[Huawei’s struggles] will change the balance of power. We need someone like Samsung to step in fast [to supply equipment],” he adds.

Telecoms companies have started to reorganise their plans, particularly for 5G upgrades. The Chinese company, market share of almost 50 per cent of some 4G networks, has largely lost its role as “primary vendor”, with companies including BT and Three turning to Ericsson as an alternative supplier. But four operators contacted by the Financial Times have yet to draw up contingency plans for a scenario in which Huawei collapses, an indication that some in the industry at least see it as resilient even in the face of the latest US onslaught.

Many executives at telecoms carriers argue that networks would not grind to a halt if Huawei were to collapse, but it would rob the industry of the ability to easily maintain networks and probably cause significant disruption to customers due to an inability to upgrade software from the Chinese company and replace faulty equipment. “It would be super painful,” says one executive.

For Huawei, the pain will almost certainly be greater. Industry experts say it is hard to envision how the company could continue running its business in its current form under Washington's seemingly watertight sanctions.

“The image of Huawei is now so associated with the fear of a ‘Red Peril’ that they need to make some trades,” says Mr Clark, adding that the Chinese government was certain to have a role in any restructuring. That, ironically, might transform Huawei into something the US has suspected it to be but the Shenzhen company always emphatically denied: a Chinese state company.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Well the financial Times and other western media always paints a dire picture. The answer is not clear, but I am confident that there will be a solution soon. Whether it's a loophole or repurpose a fab and tell the Americans to stick their sanctions up their ass.

Or there is a private market solution where we build a fab without US equipment.
 

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
Registered Member
Wonder if there is a scenario where Huawei can exchange its 5G IP for semiconductor IP.

Then again, if they could have gone the Qualcomm model, they would have by now.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Wonder if there is a scenario where Huawei can exchange its 5G IP for semiconductor IP.

Then again, if they could have gone the Qualcomm model, they would have by now.

Nope. Why would we do that? Unless they sell an EUV machine then why would this make sense. Also this article is another one of those hypothetical articles with nothing being verifiable.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Well the financial Times and other western media always paints a dire picture. The answer is not clear, but I am confident that there will be a solution soon. Whether it's a loophole or repurpose a fab and tell the Americans to stick their sanctions up their ass.

Or there is a private market solution where we build a fab without US equipment.
not sure what solution there is. i do think the article is balance. pretty much all the tech rely in someway on US product whether its EDA tools or manufacture equipment. even SMIC import stuff from US. huawei cell phone is dead if mediatek can't sell to them and qualcomm failed to lobby US. huawei 5g equipment, not sure it can fix the holes generated by US sanction in time. time will tell though, in a couple years we will know if huawei can survive or not.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
not sure what solution there is. i do think the article is balance. pretty much all the tech rely in someway on US product whether its EDA tools or manufacture equipment. even SMIC import stuff from US. huawei cell phone is dead if mediatek can't sell to them and qualcomm failed to lobby US. huawei 5g equipment, not sure it can fix the holes generated by US sanction in time. time will tell though, in a couple years we will know if huawei can survive or not.
The answer is rather simple to be honest of what kind of chips are needed and where they are going to come from.

All anyone has to do it rip apart a Huawei 5G base station or antenna.

Those things will not need the best chips at 7nm. Only cell phones need those best chips, because they are smaller and faster.

There is no doubt Huawei will replace all American parts in its telecom equipment, including the chips.

The Chinese semi-conductor industry is a couple of generations behind TSMC and Samsung, but those are the chips the 5G base station and antenna would need in all probability. You do not need such as fast chip in that equipment.

Notice that article long on the fear screaming, and short on technical details, to the point none were presented at all. The technical details are like the truth, whether for or against. Since they did not bother with that in the article, just another baseless hit piece.
 
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