*New J-10 Thread*

[walter]

walter. serious question, since you've declared that this is a rumour and
you don't have any sources for this is there any reason why you would
post this rumour ?

hi freeasia,

I have read so many rumors on this forum, i thought it was standard practise for interested parties to go ahead and state (or start) the rumor and commence discussion on it--sorry if this particular rumor does not sit well with you or others. I have no problem discussing this or other rumors. It seems maybe 50% or better of what is discussed concerning Chinese military capabilities on this forum is based on rumor since so little hard proof info comes out of China on many of these things.

do you have any information about pakistani security arrangements ? do you know how stringent they are ? the last time a french 'diplomat' decided to get 'lost' near kahuta he was given a damn good hiding because unknown to him the 'farmers' near by working in the fields weren't farmers they were pakistani security personel.

I do believe Pakistani security arrangements are stringent, as they are in most countries with sensitive military programs. However, i do recall a Dr. Khan spreading nuclear information to the highest bidders. He was caught, and to the horror of the international community was pardoned by Musharraf. Something went wrong with that security arrangement. It could, and surely has, happened in other countries, no doubt, so this is not bashing Pakistan, but rather merely illustrating that security arrangements have a tendency of being broken.

the chances of pakistan supplying the J-10 to any other country without chinese permission are absolute zero. china is a trusted ally. there is no way on earth that pakistan would provide the data to america to do so implies that pakistan would be in desperate need of american help. that help was requested in 1971 and was denied. it was paid for and requested in the late 1980's and once again denied.

As Gunnar said in Njal's saga "To each his own way of earning fame. You shall not be asked again"

this looks like an answer to my original question and you do make the important point of the special alliance between Pakistan and China, a relationship that is stronger than the US Pakistani relationship by far. So that definitely speaks against any US engineers getting a close look at the J-10. Thanks for your input.

 

[tphuang]

actually to freeasia,

There is nothing wrong with what Walter is speculating. It's an accusation that the Americans have made many times in the past. Pakistanis will obviously be offended by this, but Americans have plenty of reasons to be suspicious after the entire Dr. Khan fiasco. There is stuff a lot more outrageous than what Walter posted in this and the last J-10 thread.

As for J-10, I think I'm concerned about this too. It's not only about Americans might get close, but also exercises. You have to understand China wants the Americans to know as little as possible about J-10. Americans even did Cope India just to get a closer look at su-30s. Do you think Americans would not have exercises with PAF to watch J-10 fly live? Another issue is with putting western avionics on J-10. Again, I'm not sure what kind of accesses would be needed by the West to put Western avionics on J-10. That's another thing that China would not want. So, what I'm saying is this, China will be very careful about any kind of export deals involving J-10.

 

[SABRE]

As for J-10, I think I'm concerned about this too. It's not only about Americans might get close, but also exercises. You have to understand China wants the Americans to know as little as possible about J-10. Americans even did Cope India just to get a closer look at su-30s. Do you think Americans would not have exercises with PAF to watch J-10 fly live? Another issue is with putting western avionics on J-10. Again, I'm not sure what kind of accesses would be needed by the West to put Western avionics on J-10. That's another thing that China would not want. So, what I'm saying is this, China will be very careful about any kind of export deals involving J-10.

I think the chinese would like to see j-10 go up against US fighter, to measure j-10s capability. For F-16s they can pitch them against PAF F-16s of current model and later with Block 52s...but most of all China would like to see them against F-18s.

Putting Western avionics on J-10 would not be the job of western engineers. This is some thing PAC-Kamra does it self (E.g: they upgrade F-7's radars them selves without any help from either china or western country which has provided the radar i.e. Italy) .. offcourse some assistance would be need by west on new avionics but i dnt thin China has to worry abt France or Italy. Plus there is large presence in kamra who in return can get first hand look at the western avionics PAC installs on J-10.

 

[FreeAsia2000]

I think the chinese would like to see j-10 go up against US fighter, to measure j-10s capability. For F-16s they can pitch them against PAF F-16s of current model and later with Block 52s...but most of all China would like to see them against F-18s.

Putting Western avionics on J-10 would not be the job of western engineers. This is some thing PAC-Kamra does it self (E.g: they upgrade F-7's radars them selves without any help from either china or western country which has provided the radar i.e. Italy) .. offcourse some assistance would be need by west on new avionics but i dnt thin China has to worry abt France or Italy. Plus there is large presence in kamra who in return can get first hand look at the western avionics PAC installs on J-10.

Sabre have you been to Kamra ? My family village is fairly close to there...I used to have lunch at the Usmaniya...man it has some wicked food

Walter i just found it curious that you believed americans could just waltz into a pakistani airbase take a few photo's, spend hours checking the J-10's avionics, radar etc and then waltz out again

It may be that America wants to see it's airplanes in action against J-10's but I don't think pakistan's going to oblige unless it has clearance first from China.

tphuang if China has such reservations about secret technology leaking to the americans and it has such low regard for pakistani security and or pakistan's regard for it's word then frankly the chinese should keep the J-10's. Perhaps it shouldn't export any technology to any other country either eg Saudi Arabia. The Khan affair being some 'rogue' scientist is so much bull and the idea that he has been 'disgraced' Pakistan didn't owe america anything and if certain countries have a problem with the export of nuclear technology then they should look a bit more west of pakistan.

anyway walter if you think it's that easy why don't you visit and try it .

 

[walter]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression it would be easy to get close to a PAKAF J-10 without permission, but that wasn't what I meant at all. I thought that maybe, secretly, Pakistan might one day in the future let someone take a close look at it, not even necessarily US military personel, it could be a European or someone from another Asian nation. But really, I don't think anyone who doesn't have permission would ever get an upclose look at it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[FreeAsia2000]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression it would be easy to get close to a PAKAF J-10 without permission, but that wasn't what I meant at all. I thought that maybe, secretly, Pakistan might one day in the future let someone take a close look at it, not even necessarily US military personel, it could be a European or someone from another Asian nation. But really, I don't think anyone who doesn't have permission would ever get an upclose look at it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No probs.

for a second there i just had this strange image of people just walking
around pakistani air bases and i know from family that those people are really tight on security :rofl: sorry it's way too funny.

anyway i can't really see pakistan supplying the info to any other country.
even during the iran-iraq war pakistan helped out iran to a certain extent
but they refused to provide some radar components without american
consent. as for the other arab countries or the south east asian nations well they don't need it from pakistan because they can buy any stuff they want direct.

apologies because i misunderstood.

 

[tphuang]

Sabre have you been to Kamra ? My family village is fairly close to there...I used to have lunch at the Usmaniya...man it has some wicked food

Walter i just found it curious that you believed americans could just waltz into a pakistani airbase take a few photo's, spend hours checking the J-10's avionics, radar etc and then waltz out again

It may be that America wants to see it's airplanes in action against J-10's but I don't think pakistan's going to oblige unless it has clearance first from China.

tphuang if China has such reservations about secret technology leaking to the americans and it has such low regard for pakistani security and or pakistan's regard for it's word then frankly the chinese should keep the J-10's. Perhaps it shouldn't export any technology to any other country either eg Saudi Arabia. The Khan affair being some 'rogue' scientist is so much bull and the idea that he has been 'disgraced' Pakistan didn't owe america anything and if certain countries have a problem with the export of nuclear technology then they should look a bit more west of pakistan.

anyway walter if you think it's that easy why don't you visit and try it .

What is your problem? A couple of people voice their concerns over the export and you act as if we are wrong in doing so.

You are right. I don't think China should be exporting J-10. China is extremely careful about revealing any detail about J-10. Read what I wrote. Anytime you export a plane like this, you are going to have to be very careful when you are selling it to someone else. Yes, I'm talking about flying J-10 in exercises beside Americans as a bad thing too. So, export is fine, but there are guidelines.

 

[FreeAsia2000]

What is your problem? A couple of people voice their concerns over the export and you act as if we are wrong in doing so.

You are right. I don't think China should be exporting J-10.

China is extremely careful about revealing any detail about J-10. Read what I wrote. Anytime you export a plane like this, you are going to have to be very careful when you are selling it to someone else.

Yes, I'm talking about flying J-10 in exercises beside Americans as a bad thing too. So, export is fine, but there are guidelines.

I'm puzzled at the beginning of your post you said China shouldn't be exporting the J-10 then at the end you said 'export is fine'

Please explain.

 

[SABRE]

As I said before ... there are Chinese all over PAC-Kamra but no American, atleast no American I have herd of. The security is very high and it is said snipers are all over the place. Ppl dont just walk in high security facilities and take picture or start touring. Incase u dont know, a signle F-16 is guarded by 4 to 6 security personal in Sargodah, and they dont let you near the aircraft unless you are designated pilot of that aircraft or the chief of the security. Even if you have some sort of pass with signature of PAF Chief, the security chief's or even the President's, they wont allow you through unless you are acompanied by these senior officials. I know cause in karachi they dint let me near Mirages. They kinda seemed willing to shoot me , good thing i was with a designated pilot. PAC-Karmra, HIT and AQ-Khan Labs are perhaps one of the most secured facilities inside Asia. However, to all this, the Chinese engineers and other chinese officials in Pakistan kinda seem to have free movement access to these facilities. I saw a pic of Chinese official in front of Cobra Attack Helicopters and he had no one around him (except for the pilot in the cockpit) .... China knows security is no problem for their products in Pakistan, and thats the reason Pakistan has large number of Chinese military products. Perhaps Pakistan is the largest Chinese military hardware importer. F-6, F-7, A-5, T-72s etc ... and joint ventures like JF-17 and K-8 and now J-10 to join the long list.

About AQ-Khan spreading nuclear technology .... well 1st you should know that Pakistan is not a member of NPT...hence it is free to do any thing. Officialy it can help any country develop nuclear facility, including nuclear weapons (but that would be foolish). 2nd AQ.Khan is just a cover box of a movie called "proliferation" whats in DvD is unknown. Since the cover turned out to be provocative enough, the officials showed the cover and hid the DvD.

Now about J-10 ... I found out it is going to be pure air-defence fighter. It is probably going to be given to sqdn-9 which does not leave PAkistan even in case of war unless under the order or accompanied by Air-Vice Marshal or Air Marshal. Usually Chief Air Marshals and Vice Air Marshals them selves accompany the fighters of sqdn-9 in war. (its very unique attempt, not many countries Chief air-marshals and vice air-marshals them selves go into war/battle ground). J-10 is to replace some Mirage-3s which perform these duties. Hence I am guessing that J-10 are mostly going to be upgraded with French avionics.

 

[tphuang]

I'm puzzled at the beginning of your post you said China shouldn't be exporting the J-10 then at the end you said 'export is fine'

Please explain.

I'm saying that they shouldn't export J-10 this early. However, if they do (which is what seems to be happening here), then there has to be guidelines. Anyhow, all of these details including avionics changes would be decided between China and Pakistan. Nothing I say will make a difference either way.