*New J-10 Thread*

[walter]

Anyway, it is unlikely that the US is "very interested" or "worried" by J-10's development.

The reason is that many small or developing nations make fighter jets nowadays, like China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, Taiwan, South Korea etc.
Many more nations make local versions or licenced copies of Russian, Chinese or other western jets like Egypt, Turkey, North Korea, etc.

The appearance of 4th generation fighter jets is fast becoming a norm rather than an exception and every A,B,C nation has MiG-29s, F-16s, Su-27 or Su-30 Flankers, F-15s etc.

The US simply cannot spend time speculating or "worrying" about every new entrant like the J-10, FC-1, T-50, or Azarakhsh.
When a new fighter-jet is announced, the Pentagon just briefs the President on the generation of the fighter, its rough capabilities and assures him that the JSF and F-22 are superior to these jets, and the US airspace and other interests are safe.

I have to agree that the US doesn't worry about every new 4th gen fighter, as you state, but I do believe there are many US tacticians very interested in the J-10. The FC-1 is less capable and therefore less of a worry, the T-50 was developed by SK with the help of Lockheed and is a trainer/light fighter--so no worry there, and most of the other ongoing projects also do not warrant much worry in terms of there comparitive performance or the nations developing them.

The J-10, however, has the potential to rival any western 4th gen fighter, and since it will be decades before the US is fielding only 5th gen fighters, believe me, there are plenty in USAF and USN who are not worried, but definitely interested. The other obvious consideration here is that the Pentagon views China as a potential threat, that is, there is a real possibility within coming decades that some sort of military conflict could arise with Taiwan as the flash point. So US military tacticians have a real interest to know the capabilities of the not just the J-10, but other aircraft in China's inventory like Su-30s. Obviously the USAF was happy to see how India's Su-30s performed given the opportunity.

So to sum up, I don't think the pentagon is worried about the J-10, but rather it is their job to evaluate possible foes in regards to an airplane's capabilities and the tactics used in order to know what to expect. And as I stated, the J-10 has the potential to rival many of the US fighters it would face in a confrontation.

 

[FreeAsia2000]

I have to agree that the US doesn't worry about every new 4th gen fighter, as you state, but I do believe there are many US tacticians very interested in the J-10. The FC-1 is less capable and therefore less of a worry, the T-50 was developed by SK with the help of Lockheed and is a trainer/light fighter--so no worry there, and most of the other ongoing projects also do not warrant much worry in terms of there comparitive performance or the nations developing them.

The J-10, however, has the potential to rival any western 4th gen fighter, and since it will be decades before the US is fielding only 5th gen fighters, believe me, there are plenty in USAF and USN who are not worried, but definitely interested. The other obvious consideration here is that the Pentagon views China as a potential threat, that is, there is a real possibility within coming decades that some sort of military conflict could arise with Taiwan as the flash point. So US military tacticians have a real interest to know the capabilities of the not just the J-10, but other aircraft in China's inventory like Su-30s. Obviously the USAF was happy to see how India's Su-30s performed given the opportunity.

So to sum up, I don't think the pentagon is worried about the J-10, but rather it is their job to evaluate possible foes in regards to an airplane's capabilities and the tactics used in order to know what to expect. And as I stated, the J-10 has the potential to rival many of the US fighters it would face in a confrontation.

Well the only two countries that will have the J-10 are China and Pakistan.

The JF-17 the so-called money maker and it's various upgrades will more likely be facing off against american f-22. it remains to be seen whether china adopts the russian 'monkey model' approach to exports.

Pakistani j-10's are unlikely to go up against F-22's even if america exports them to certain neighbouring countries as suggested by an influential american think-tank.

 

[MIGleader]

I agree. The gap is closing in terms of fighter generations.

How much of a percentage difference is there in performance between a peak
4th gen and a peak 5th gen fighter ?

A peak fifth generation does not really exist yet. The f-22 is one of the first, and therefor cannot possibly the most advanced of its kind. Compared to a peak fourth such as the eurofighter, the only major advantage is stealth. We cant put a percentage mark on that.

whilest the j-10 might be nearing the block 52 f-16(It certainly will surpass 52 with the first super-10 upgrade), it has passed taiwans block 40/42s(is that what they have?)

 

[SABRE]

Well the only two countries that will have the J-10 are China and Pakistan.

I Disagree ... May be it would take longer time for China to decide to sell J-10 to other interested countries but in the end it might just sell them. Incase you dont know, both Pakistan and China jointly are influencing the militaries of South Asian countries. They probably prefer South Asia and Some east Asian countries to rely on their military hardware. Bangladesh for example has already expressed its interest in JF-17 and Sri Lanka just signed a Defence Deal with Pakistan (Contents not revealed). As of right now J-10 is State-of-Art fighter ever produced by an Asian country (Japan produces F-2, but thats just a re-modeled F-16 made with the Help of US .. Tiwan has built its fighter but thats too build by Americans in Tiwan and is not superior to the tiwanese fighter). It is because of this J-10 is primary product to China, once it becomes secondry when some thing like J-XX comes out, J-10 might be cleared for mass export. Also from the past couple of yrs J-10 seems to be like a stop gap for China.

The JF-17 the so-called money maker and it's various upgrades will more likely be facing off against american f-22. it remains to be seen whether china adopts the russian 'monkey model' approach to exports.{

What exactly r u trying to say here? That PLAAF will pitch JF-17 against F-22 --- i have simply lost words here.

Pakistani j-10's are unlikely to go up against F-22's even if america exports them to certain neighbouring countries as suggested by an influential american think-tank.

If u r refering to India, I dont think USA is going to export F-22 to them. If u were talking abt Chinese neighbours (Japan) than thats a concern. It highly likely.

 

[tphuang]

A peak fifth generation does not really exist yet. The f-22 is one of the first, and therefor cannot possibly the most advanced of its kind. Compared to a peak fourth such as the eurofighter, the only major advantage is stealth. We cant put a percentage mark on that.

whilest the j-10 might be nearing the block 52 f-16(It certainly will surpass 52 with the first super-10 upgrade), it has passed taiwans block 40/42s(is that what they have?)

Taiwanese ones are actually block 20, meaning that they have the electronics of block 50, but the engine of F-16A. So, they are underpowered, but their avionics+weapons are pretty good. The ROCAF is using AIM-120C5, not the latest C7, but still pretty new.

Generally, I feel confident that J-10 can get a decent exchange ratio with any 4th generation planes it faces provided that both sides have good training and good AWACS support and such. Although I'd consider the typhoon and rafale to be in another league between the teens and F-22.

As for the Americans feeling threat, it depends who you are. If you are one of the China threat people, then J-10 would be a threat. But if you are a more non-biased military analyst, then it would be less so. Either way, Americans would want to find out what J-10's capability is. It's all about doing your home work about your foe. And that's what China has to protect against.

 

[Diving Falcon]

I agree that it is China's national right to protect its secrets - but I do not think you should discount Pakistan; it too is a country that protects its secrets well - very well infact.

 

[crobato]

Taiwanese ones are actually block 20, meaning that they have the electronics of block 50, but the engine of F-16A. So, they are underpowered, but their avionics+weapons are pretty good. The ROCAF is using AIM-120C5, not the latest C7, but still pretty new.

I won't discount the Block 20 that easily. When it first came out, the Block 20 had superior electronics to the Block 50 and 52 built before it. Only later was the Block 50 and 52 upgraded to the same standard as the Block 20.

Also the Block 20 uses the Block 15 airframe. The F-16A Block 15 airframe is a lot lighter than the F-16C airframe, so it is actually more agile, even if it had less power. The F-16C's increase in weight is due to heavier beefing of the airframe to carry high payloads. In a way, that satisfies China also, since it reduces the ability of the Block 20 for offensive missions.

 

[tphuang]

The JF-17 the so-called money maker and it's various upgrades will more likely be facing off against american f-22. it remains to be seen whether china adopts the russian 'monkey model' approach to exports.

Well, you know the Russians. They will tell you they are selling you this great product, but it's always going to be downgraded from their domestic versions. Is China doing the same? Probably. I'm thinking every exporting country is doing the same. Including the Americans.

Yeah, I was referring block 20 to the later block 50s. I'm not exactly sure what the MLU avionics suite is equivalent to in terms of block 50.

 

[FreeAsia2000]

Well, you know the Russians. They will tell you they are selling you this great product, but it's always going to be downgraded from their domestic versions. Is China doing the same? Probably. I'm thinking every exporting country is doing the same. Including the Americans.

Yeah, I was referring block 20 to the later block 50s. I'm not exactly sure what the MLU avionics suite is equivalent to in terms of block 50.

Well the J-10 was originally supposed to be equivalent to the block 30/32 F-16
so it seems to have a really progressed in a short time.

The Russians had three categories of military equipment

1. Monkey model for export.

2. Standard easy to use gear this was based on the lessons they
learned in WW2. Requirements in war are for cheap, easy to produce and use equipment. Basically a few days training should be sufficient

3. The high tech version of the above which was kept under wraps and only used by elite units

It dosn't look like the Chinese are adopting the Russian system.

Sabre i menat that the JF-17 in the hands of 3rd world countries might be fielded against american f-22's

 

[tphuang]

Well the J-10 was originally supposed to be equivalent to the block 30/32 F-16
so it seems to have a really progressed in a short time.

The Russians had three categories of military equipment

1. Monkey model for export.

2. Standard easy to use gear this was based on the lessons they
learned in WW2. Requirements in war are for cheap, easy to produce and use equipment. Basically a few days training should be sufficient

3. The high tech version of the above which was kept under wraps and only used by elite units

It dosn't look like the Chinese are adopting the Russian system.

Sabre i menat that the JF-17 in the hands of 3rd world countries might be fielded against american f-22's

J-10 was only estimated to be block 30 by the Americans, due to the similarities in thrust and the fact that it can fire BVR AAMs and such. I always thought of it as equivalent to earlier versions of block 50 in terms of air superiority missions. Having said that, I have to admit that in terms of multirole capability, it's still far behind that of F-16C/D. Especially with the new 3D TVC and uprated AL-31FN engine + some of the avionics upgrades over the last few years, I think the block 30 comparison is quite invalid. It's interesting that Richard Fisher's comparison of J-10 has changed from block 30 to block 30 is an understatement to "modern variants of the F-16" in one of his latest articles.

I guess you are referring to Iran as one of those 3rd world countries?