*New J-10 Thread*

[crobato]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation.
Since my question is about J-10, I'll put if forward here.

What do you guys think about the comment of a Chinese official that J-10 surpass F-16 ini capability?
Do you think this is real, or just business-oriented comment (just to attract customers)?

Please advise

Its too vague and F-16 has many variants.

In my opinion, I think the J-10 exceeds the F-16 in these areas

- instantaneous turn rates
- angle of attack
- low speed handling (against C/D versions)
- supersonic speed
- supersonic maneuverbility
- range and internal fuel capacity

About even in

- roll rates
- vertical maneuver

Does not exceed the F-16 in these areas

- sustained turn rates
- variety of PGMs and munitions/AG roles
- cockpit visibility

The avionics level is about the same level as the Block 30 to 42 aircraft, and perhaps the old 50/52. But behind Block 20, MLU, 52 plus and definitely E/F (block 60).

 

[tphuang]

Its too vague and F-16 has many variants.

In my opinion, I think the J-10 exceeds the F-16 in these areas

- instantaneous turn rates
- angle of attack
- low speed handling (against C/D versions)
- supersonic speed
- supersonic maneuverbility
- range and internal fuel capacity

About even in

- roll rates
- vertical maneuver

Does not exceed the F-16 in these areas

- sustained turn rates
- variety of PGMs and munitions/AG roles
- cockpit visibility

The avionics level is about the same level as the Block 30 to 42 aircraft, and perhaps the old 50/52. But behind Block 20, MLU, 52 plus and definitely E/F (block 60).

I don't think it's behind block 20 or MLU in avionics. The reason is that J-10's nose is just much larger than that of the F-16A/B. Whatever technological gap there is can be overcome by the 7xx mm radar.

 

[optionsss]

First of all, China is not like USA. She dont sell with political strings attached.

yes, but all China want is for PAF to be able to fend itself against India, and they will sell their stuff respectively.

Secondly, if you look at her arms trade history specially with respect to Pakistan, you will notice that Pakistan always procured the best of what China had to offer and even further upgraded them on occasions. One example being F-7 PGs, Missiles and so on....

Same reason I have stated above. At that time China had no choice but to sell the best to PAF, because pakistan needed them to survive against India initially. After the nuclear embargo, China's military is not very advanced itself, so selling the best tech seems the only option. Now it is a much different story and correct me if I am wrong, but MBT-2000 is certainly not China's best tank.

Thirdly and lastly, If you read this very topic on J-10s from page 01, you will notice that J-10s has turned out to be way better then what had been expected of it initially.

JF-17s were never meant to be a frontline fighter planea in PAF planning. JF-17s are to form the backbone replacing F-7s, A-5s and Mirages. JF-17s are better then anything except for the current PAF F-16s, that Pakistan have. They are to from the Low and F-20s and new F-16s if delivered will form the high end frontline planes. 2 JF-17s are to be delivered to Pakistan on 10th of March 2007. So I leave it upto your wiseness to calculate how long before atleast a squadron is in service. Definitely not 2009.

I read some publication on the JF-17 somewhere and it said that JF-17 would enter operational stage for the PAF by 2009, but it seems logical if they have to wait for the Chinese engines.

I think we all could agree that Pakistan is really important to China and vice versa, but I just don't see a country sell their latest technology to another country, unless in desperate situations.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

yes, but all China want is for PAF to be able to fend itself against India, and they will sell their stuff respectively.

Same reason I have stated above. At that time China had no choice but to sell the best to PAF, because pakistan needed them to survive against India initially. After the nuclear embargo, China's military is not very advanced itself, so selling the best tech seems the only option. Now it is a much different story and correct me if I am wrong, but MBT-2000 is certainly not China's best tank.

I read some publication on the JF-17 somewhere and it said that JF-17 would enter operational stage for the PAF by 2009, but it seems logical if they have to wait for the Chinese engines.

I think we all could agree that Pakistan is really important to China and vice versa, but I just don't see a country sell their latest technology to another country, unless in desperate situations.

I think you are not reading properly what I am saying. Almost all systems procured by Pakistan during the past 30+ years, All were the best of what China had to offer and still Pakistan upgraded them even further. Pakistani Al-khalid is very much modified from the Chinese MBT 2000. As It has alot of systems from different countries' origin installed on it. Chinese prefer all chinese only. and it was the best tank in China when Pakistan bought them.

Anyways, the topic is J-10. Look at the history of Pakistan-China arms trade and it should give you a very clear answer. Just because you think is not sufficient enough when the facts based on the past 30+ years point to a different direction.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine and I am basing my opinion on the history and current relationship.

As far as JF-17s, you are not reading, are you? Two (2) planes are to be delivered next month to PAF !!

 

[optionsss]

good head and believe whatever u want to believe, I mean degraded surface to air missile was already there, the trend seems continue going so... I will believe JH-17 with the PAF in mar 2007 when I see it.

anywayz as u said, it is getting off topic, I think we will both shutup. ff ff

 

[jackbh]

I think you are not reading properly what I am saying. Almost all systems procured by Pakistan during the past 30+ years, All were the best of what China had to offer and still Pakistan upgraded them even further. Pakistani Al-khalid is very much modified from the Chinese MBT 2000. As It has alot of systems from different countries' origin installed on it. Chinese prefer all chinese only. and it was the best tank in China when Pakistan bought them.

As more advaced technology that is exported there is less room for upgrade unless you have the full blue prints of the machine and very good understanding of the design, these can be prohibiting for major upgrade and developments. China might be planning to sell J-10 to Pakistan but I doubt it's also handing over blue prints and advance design theories. Also I heard the J-10 Pakistan is getting has less advance composite material and more traditional metal alloy because Pakistan still can not maintain advance composite materials.
Plus as you say if Pakistan is so good in making systems better they should be designing and building very advance system by themselves already.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

As more advaced technology that is exported there is less room for upgrade unless you have the full blue prints of the machine and very good understanding of the design, these can be prohibiting for major upgrade and developments. China might be planning to sell J-10 to Pakistan but I doubt it's also handing over blue prints and advance design theories. Also I heard the J-10 Pakistan is getting has less advance composite material and more traditional metal alloy because Pakistan still can not maintain advance composite materials.
Plus as you say if Pakistan is so good in making systems better they should be designing and building very advance system by themselves already.

Where did I say that Pakistan is making their own systems? I said that they upgraded it with systems procured thorugh other countries such as France and Italy and Ukraine. I dont know where you are reading from.

and it wasnt J-10. It was K-8 you are talking about where Pakistan requested for more alloys. Are you okay ?

J-10 is not coming tomorrow. $1.5 billion for 36 planes will come with the basic infrastructure to maintain them too. and the induction is still years away.

Problem is that unlike Indian Airforce, PAF do not whine about anything untill she gets her hands on it.

and please you SERIOUSLY need to concentrate on what you are reading !!

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

good head and believe whatever u want to believe, I mean degraded surface to air missile was already there, the trend seems continue going so... I will believe JH-17 with the PAF in mar 2007 when I see it.

anywayz as u said, it is getting off topic, I think we will both shutup. ff ff

Your empty statements are not based on ANY substantial material or backed up by any link.

Provide a link to back up your claims.

In the meantime, I however concede, that my comments do rankle and make an impression on the one who resorts to chicanery and obstuse deception.

 

[jackbh]

I never said Pakistan is building their own systems, so you need to read my statements more carefully. And you completely ignore what I said in the first paragraph.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I never said Pakistan is building their own systems, so you need to read my statements more carefully. And you completely ignore what I said in the first paragraph.

Intelligence is an essential input to understand the underlying subtle inferences that prevades the post.