*New J-10 Thread*

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Deino

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Not from a distance no. You have to be close enough to count the number of petals and design differences.

Look closely in the pictures.

* The WS-10 nozzle is longer. Nozzle + dark ring extends nearly way to the root of the parachute boom.
* The silver ring in the AL-31FN engine does not exceed where the parachute boom starts.
* But the silver ring in the WS-10 engine goes way back into the tail root. It consists of two parts, as you can see an outer ring that touches the root of the boom while the inner ring goes all the way further.

The nozzles are overrated. The Chinese may have conveniently copied the design of the AL-31F. But look at the rings around the engine past the nozzle. They are significantly different in size and location. .


Hmmm ??? Even if I’m not persuaded 100% I agree with You that there are some differences, bigger than I anticipated at first (… but I still tend to say this is because of the age of that individual engine, an slight shift of angle between both pictures here and or differences between early AL-31FNs and later versions). On some older – more used Su-27 the exhaust gets the same blue shimmer as shown on the 1003.

But just as a starting point – maybe I missed something !: What was the reason that persuaded YOU that these are WS-10 ??? … we already knew these pictures from the early prototypes – some of them for years – we were speculation when and if ever a J-10 was powered actually by an WS-10 !!!

But o.k. … I had some time today do try some “cut & paste” efforts / attempts !?

J-10A_AL-31FN_vs._WS-10.JPG



Here I agree with You, as it answers an important question:


The prototypes with WS-10 satisfy one glaring question I had before. How can the Russians be able to modify and manufacture the engine so quickly you can have it delivered in 1997 so a J-10 prototype can fly it in 1998.


The answer: they didn't. The first AL-31FNs were only delivered after 2001.

… and opens another one !! If we compare older pictures of the different prototypes and only take a close look on these differences, then I would say the first prototypes - at least 1001 + 1003 to 1006 - were powered by this engine !
Only then the engine was changed to the AL-31FN with the 101x-numbered prototypes/pre-serials … and nobody noticed that !??

Quite interesting the two J-10S prototypes show the AL-31FN which fits to their later !


Here is a reason why the ring may be showing on the WS-10 engine. Because it has a slightly larger diameter in the butt so you can't extend the fuselage skin to cover it.

As for diameter, this is the wS-10 engine, not the WS-10A with the A engine that is improved. The AL-31FN does not have the same diameter as the AL-31F either, a reason for that it uses a new slightly wider 3 stage IP compressor while the vanilla AL-31F uses a 4 stage one.


O.k. … same as above but even in my own crude attempt to fit a late-model AL-31FN into the p.1003 airframe I think You are right ;) but additional it looks like there are some more changes made to the tail like the deeper aft section – maybe here's the ECM-system located ? – and the rear part of the base !

But just take a look ! …. Any comments ??? :confused:

Cheers, Deino
 

crobato

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If you noticed when you impose your four lines, the parachute boom on the AL-31FN is also longer, suggesting a redesign in the aft. The WS-10 seemed to require greater support, lengthening the fuselage and shortening the boom.

There has been a lot of questions about the AL-31FN deliveries. Certainly if planes are flown in 1994 and 1996, they could not be powered by AL-31FNs. But I had doubts about the engine flying even in 1998. The engine first appeared in public display in Zhuhai 2000, and I never found any mention of it specifically as further back than 1999.

My picture collection extends to planes 1008 and 1009, also show the extended ring.

Blue shimmer is the result of nickel alloys being used. Unlike titanium, nickel alloy is much more heat resistant and therefore, you see it used on engine nozzles and heat shields.

The interesting question now is these original WS-10 engines would have worn out by now. If the 100X planes are still flying, what would have been installed then?

Given that there were at least 9 (according to PiBu) to 10 engines that were delivered prior to the first batch of 54 engnies. I would probably think that the 101X series and probably 102x were made with these. I really like to see what truly is the number of engines in the original batch.

This means that the 54 engines in the first batch were serial. Please note that the contract for engines used for new planes also contain an unspecified number of reserves, which means reserved engines are not counted. The 54 engines would have to be consumed by some of the J-10s going to the FTTC (probably joined by the 101x batch renumbered), and by the J-10s of the 44th.
 

simonov

Junior Member
Iran no longer as F-7 user because they disaponted to its radar, so they give it to North Africa Countries. BTW in 1980 when China sold weaponry in Iran, is there any change that they get to Tomcat access?
 

crobato

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When the Iranians did that movie about a celebrated attack on one of Saddam's most protected bases, they still had those F-7s, which played extras in the movie painted in Iraq Air Force colors. Of course, the Tomcats were there too in the movie, these planes are clearly still flying.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
..when China sold weaponry in Iran, is there any change that they get to Tomcat access?
I read somewhere that they got 2-can't find the link; but in any case it's not an enigma for the PLAAF, judging from this picture-
286967.jpg


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Experts pooh-pooh China's J-10

By Jimmy Chuang
STAFF REPORTER
Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007, Page 2
Local air defense specialists yesterday dismissed reports that China's J-10 jet fighters -- the latest major aircraft to be deployed by the Chinese air force -- poses a threat to Taiwan.

"Based on our analysis of the aircraft's background and [our knowledge] of the training of Taiwanese and Chinese pilots," the J-10 is not a threat to Taiwan, said Pan Kong-hsiao (潘恭孝), director of the National Defense University's air force department.

Pan was approached yesterday for comments regarding the Chinese air force's admission early this year that the J-10 jet fighter had joined its fleet. A number of military magazines and arms experts have said that the J-10 could become a threat to Taiwan.

Pan said that should a J-10 aircraft attack Taiwan, it would first have to contend with local air defense missiles, followed by Taiwan's F-16 fighters. The J-10 would not have enough fuel to disengage, return to its base and refill, Pan said.

High maintenance

Pan added that maintenance for the J-10 aircraft would be troublesome for the Chinese air force.

"The aircraft is the result of a combination of technology from four countries -- Israel, the US, Russia and China. In comparison, Taiwanese jet fighters are a lot easier to maintain since we are using only pure US or French aircraft, as well as self-developed fighters," Pan said.

However, Pan said he would not deny that the J-10's state-of-the-art radar and weapon systems could be a threat to Taiwan.

"The Chinese air force is evolving," Pan said. "They have been shifting focus from quantity to quality. They are now paying more attention to the quality of their weapons."

An air force commander, however, said he was confident that Taiwanese pilots would be able to handle their Chinese opponents.

Having quality aircraft is one thing, but they can't do much without quality pilots, said Major General Shen Yi-ming (沈一鳴), commander of the air force's 499th Division.

Quality pilots

"Performance wise, the J-10 is just about the same as our Mirage 2000-5s and F-16s. But the quality of Chinese pilots falls well below ours,'" Shen said.

The air force general added that Chinese pilots rely on commands from their supervisors on the ground during battle. Tai-wanese pilots, conversely, are trained to make quick decisions in the air whenever they encounter any form of danger during war.

"It is the key to winning in the air, and winners take all," Shen said.

I wonder how and what do the
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about J-10 performance?

an unnamed Chinese aviation expert said recently that "the Lavi died in Israel and was
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in China."

Islamabad is also expected to order up to 100 FC-10s, to be co-produced by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex as the JF-17. Deliveries are due to begin in 2007. The FC-10 deal would be for 36 of the J-10 variant and would be in additon to the FC-1/JF-17s Pakistan is already taking, this would be the first export of the J-10. Pakistan is moving forward with its purchase of up to 150 FC-1 light fighters, also known as the JF-17 and Super-7.
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simonov

Junior Member
Even Tomcat not an enigma for China but I think its radar n avionik is an Enigma if they get in 1980

So do you think Lavi is Copy by China?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Its not a copy. More like the Israelis inspiring and showing them the way. Plus a bit of Russian, and perhaps even a bit of European help too. But the path China has to work, it has to walk by itself. This is more like a teacher-student relationship.
 

crobato

Colonel
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I wonder how and what do the Taiwanese know about J-10 performance?

They probably know better, but they have to feed the media some crap to make the people feel good and assured.

Usually when people go the length to downplay something, its usually a sign they are deeply concerned internally.

I just find the article weird sometimes, or a bit delusional. Israel provided technological knowhow but they don't manufacture parts for the J-10. Everything for the J-10 is manufactured in China regardless of the inspired design origins of the systems. It's all absorbed, digested and remade technology. But the bottom line remains that except for the engine, every bolt, nut, wire and whatever from the plane is from China. I certainly do not think that there are US made major parts in the J-10.

The ROCAF has more of a logistical problem than the PLAAF.

The PLAAF only either has to source from China, and the imported stuff from Russia. So you only have two national vendors.

But the ROCAF has to source three ways, from the US for the F-16s, France for the M2000, and locally for the IDF.

While the Russians have their support issues, what's certain is that they are a lot more enthusiastic to sell and supply stuff to China, than France or the US is to Taiwan. France and the US always have this spectre of Beijing filing a complaint, and there is a conflict of interest because both France and the US has a lot of other business in China that they both wish to further. Whereas the Russians don't have a conflict of interest in Taiwan, and certainly benefits from painting Taiwan as an enemy of the PRC.

You can compare the logistical structure in another way. The ROCAF has to support 4 types of engines, the PW F100 for the F-16, M88 for the M2000, TE1042 for the IDF, and whatever is for the F-5 (J85?) The PLAAF only has two, WP-13 for the J-7s and J-8IIs, AL-31F/FN for the Flankers and J-10s. If you add bombers and strikers, then the PLAAF will have to deal with two more engine types, but both of which are also locally made (WS-9 for JH-7A and WP-6 for Fantan).

Now for the pilots, when you read about PLAAF exercises, pilot blogs, interviews, stories and comments, you hardly see or hear this ground controller factor. It seems that PLAAF pilots are quite autonomous, at least they are nowadays. Maybe ROCAF wants to imagine that the PLAAF pilots are like Soviet pilots, acting like unthinking robots guided by ground controllers---never mind that the PLAAF pretty much split away from the Soviet Union's sphere of influence back in 1962. Never mind that even Mao Zedong's own writings tend to stress a lot of small unit and commander autonomy, which is a primary requirement for guerilla warfare. The Communists won't conquer the mainland if they had stuck to conventional, inflexible, highly centralized command structures as their main doctrine.

As for plane performance, I believe the J-10 has better instantaneous turn rate over the M2000 and F-16A. But all these planes are going to be very good in maneuvering now matter what, and whatever advantages one has, its like saying I got a sharper blade in my knife, or a I got a longer blade, or a more comfortable handle in my knife during a knife fight. Wont really matter at all, WVR is really about pilots once the aircraft achieved a certain maneuverbility level. Hence it really is about pilot quality.

In my observation, the PLAAF has a lot more opportunities to practice DACT in terms of location, airspace, the variety of aircraft, and certainly has a better budget position. At least for the elite units. While meticulously maintained, there are still a lot of old planes in the PLAAF, and this has resulted in an unfortunate class structure within the PLAAF between the "have-new" and the "still-old" ones.
 
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