New J-10 thread II

[RedMercury]

Lurk more. If someone knew the answers to these questions, and could support them with evidence, then it would have been posted long ago.

 

[dollarman]

I'm looking all I can, but my inability to read Chinese is a hinderance among other things.

 

[crobato]

Seriously, for J-10 numbers we are looking at:

Prototypes: over 20 to 22.

FTTC regiment, formerly trials, not training and aggressor wing---at least 20+

44th Divsision J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes.

3rd Division J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes.

2nd Division J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes

possible new regiment in the 1st Division ---being converted.

I am guessing roughly over a hundred heading to near 150 by the end of year.

 

[challenge]

al41 may not be in serial production yet. Didn't they say that first su-35s would be equipped with a weaker engine until al41 is ready? Also, stronger engine requires more air. Su35 has, for example, enlarged intakes. So physical modifications on the planes would also be needed. And we must not forget engine is just one part of the equation that may give a plane the ability to go supersonic without afterburners. There's also aerodynamics of the plane, especially with full external stores to consider.

alternative was to incorporate AL-41 core technology inside AL-31F.or complete version AL-31 with super cruise.

 

[Sczepan]

Seriously, for J-10 numbers we are looking at:

Prototypes: over 20 to 22.

FTTC regiment, formerly trials, not training and aggressor wing---at least 20+

44th Divsision J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes.

3rd Division J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes.

2nd Division J-10 regiment --- up to 28 planes

possible new regiment in the 1st Division ---being converted.

I am guessing roughly over a hundred heading to near 150 by the end of year.

in my count:

3t. Test Regiment in Wenjiang - Chengdu Aircraft Corp. (CAC)
13t. Operational Testregiment FTTC in Cangzhou-Cangxian (operational March 2003)
_____________those was the 20 + prototypes_______________

Operationat Regiments:
44. Fighter Division / 130. Regiment in Mengzi,
44. Fighter Division / 131. Regiment in Kunming (starting in 2004),
44. Fighter Division / 132. Regiment in Mengzi

3. Fighter Division / 2., 5., 7. and/or 8. Regiment in Changxing

in conversation:
1. Fighter Division / 2. Regiment in Chifeng
2. Fighter Division / 5. Regiment in Suixi oder Liuzhou

each will have 24 J-10 A (one seat) + 4 J-10 AS (two seats);

so I add min. 20 + Prototypes and 120 to 150 serial planes in spring 2007 and arround 160 to 200 by the end of the year (at least more than 220 planes by the end of 2007)

compared to
54 AL-32 FN - first butch went into fighters
100 AL-32 FN delivery startet 2005 Nov.
and 150 additional contracted in May and Sept. 2007 (at least arround 300)

so I think today most of the J-10 will be equipped with AL-32 FN engines, the WS-10A is need to work with the chinese J-11

 

[tphuang]

prototypes 20+
FTTC 20+
44th division - 2 regiments and 28 each
3rd division - 28
2nd division - 28
1st division - should eventually be 28, maybe not there yet.
I read recently that J-10 production at CAC is already done for the year, so 1st division ones will all be delivered very soon. That will be 28 x 5 +50 = 190
Although, I'm not sure if I should be counting the prototype ones.

surpringly China do not select AL-41,AL-41 which are more powerful than AL-31FN,but also super cruise capability.
according to air international,during close in "dog fight",the F-15C has difficulty shooting down against F-22 flying at super cruise.with this a lot countries such as sweden already planning super cruise capability for gripen.

AL-41 - just started development, actually it's right now on pause waiting for additional funding.
AL-41F1A - (aka 117S), this is the engine with the 5th generation characteristics that the Russian talked about supposedly going on su-35, but it's not really 5th generation
AL-31FM series - I believe China gave some funding for this project, FM3/4 should have higher thrust level than 117S, so I don't really see what the problem is. Especially since Salyut has apparently signed the deal for Shenyang Liming for local production.

 

[dollarman]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Does the coproduction deal allow Shenyang Liming to produce successively more advanced versions of the AL-31FM as they become available, or only the M1?

 

[dollarman]

I did a bit of lurking, and heres all I got:
1. Theres probably a few J-10s at CTFC flying around with AL-31FM1 as evaluation. There may or may not be a Flanker with the same modification.
2. J-10 is flying with this engine because WS-10A production has been entirely benchmarked for J-11B. Thats saying something, since you can make 2x as many J-10 as J-11 using the same quota of engines.
3. The last statement leads me to conclude that 1v1 or 2v2 J-10 on J-11B mock fights have already taken place, with the results being classified. Both are in service, why not? But the fact that WS-10A production is being reserved for J-11A means the J-11B at least held its own admirably or defeated the J-10. Naturally, in BVR combat, the J-11B has the bigger radar so it should get the first jump on the J-10. The problem is that Pl-12's range is only 70km. By the time J-11B gets close enough to shoot, its already well within J-10s detection envolope(plus it has bigger RCS than J-10 aswell). That said, I cant figure out how BVR combat between the two would be anything but a tie, assuming the pilots are both the same skill level. WVR is more difficult to guess. J-10 has the better design, but J-11B has more thrust(assuming its using WS-10A).
4. The Al-31FM1 will probably be the engine selected to refit old Su-27s and J-11s. Makes logistical sense. But of course, there will need to be avionic (particularly FBW and other control) modifications to manage the TVC. I hope this means the older planes will get a complete sensor overhaul in the process, as they are in dire need of one. Needless to say, the J-10s being equipped with the engine will need avionic changes too, but that was probably planned anyways.
5. Al-31FM1 equipped J-10 will probably do circles around J-11B in WVR combat, but thats not really that important anyways in an era when you can push a button from 100km away and the other guys dead.

 

[tphuang]

I did a bit of lurking, and heres all I got:
1. Theres probably a few J-10s at CTFC flying around with AL-31FM1 as evaluation. There may or may not be a Flanker with the same modification.
2. J-10 is flying with this engine because WS-10A production has been entirely benchmarked for J-11B. Thats saying something, since you can make 2x as many J-10 as J-11 using the same quota of engines.
3. The last statement leads me to conclude that 1v1 or 2v2 J-10 on J-11B mock fights have already taken place, with the results being classified. Both are in service, why not? But the fact that WS-10A production is being reserved for J-11A means the J-11B at least held its own admirably or defeated the J-10. Naturally, in BVR combat, the J-11B has the bigger radar so it should get the first jump on the J-10. The problem is that Pl-12's range is only 70km. By the time J-11B gets close enough to shoot, its already well within J-10s detection envolope(plus it has bigger RCS than J-10 aswell). That said, I cant figure out how BVR combat between the two would be anything but a tie, assuming the pilots are both the same skill level. WVR is more difficult to guess. J-10 has the better design, but J-11B has more thrust(assuming its using WS-10A).
4. The Al-31FM1 will probably be the engine selected to refit old Su-27s and J-11s. Makes logistical sense. But of course, there will need to be avionic (particularly FBW and other control) modifications to manage the TVC. I hope this means the older planes will get a complete sensor overhaul in the process, as they are in dire need of one. Needless to say, the J-10s being equipped with the engine will need avionic changes too, but that was probably planned anyways.
5. Al-31FM1 equipped J-10 will probably do circles around J-11B in WVR combat, but thats not really that important anyways in an era when you can push a button from 100km away and the other guys dead.

J-11B is getting WS-10A ahead of J-10, because you want to use the less reliable engine on a twin-engined fighter. You got some extra redundancy there. And you shouldn't view a BVR combat just simply as the maximum range of PL-12 or the maximum range of the radar. There is also stuff like power of EW suite. For example, a recent Chinese article I read mentionned that a indigenous ECM pod managed to reduce the maximum detection range of a radar by 10 fold during testing.

 

[Roger604]

Maybe we're on the wrong track here. The article says "The engines will be installed on Chinese J-10 Super-10 fighters."

This suggests to me that the TVC engines are for the "twin-engined J-10" aka "Super 10" aka "Chengdu J-13" aka "J-XX".

It makes a lot more sense to put the most advanced engine China can get its hands on on the most advanced aircraft. This suggests to me that this Chengdu stealth fighter project is moving along at a brisk pace, that they are already planning for future serial production.