New J-10 thread II

[Totoro]

Well, contrary info would point to one direction - that no one really knows. for one ws-10a may be the name of a variant for j11b. Since it started popping up on the internet, ws10a was claimed to be made for j11b. A slightly different variant would be needed for j10. At the same time, no new large al31 engine orders were spotted for j11 line, whereears now we heard bout the third batch od al31 (fn) for j10. with 154 al31fn delivered, and some 5 or so regiments j10s have been spotted in - it would mean the russian engines are still covering all of the j10 production. Now, when will the switch to some variant of ws10 happen - we don't know. They could've ordered 100 more, like the previous batch, but they ordered just 50, when the j10 production rate is surely to be as big as during last year or bigger. That may be a sign of ws10 being ready for j10. They said j10 would be fitted with one by the end of this year. That may mean a limited number of trial airplanes. extra 50 al31s would probably be used up quickly so in another year ws10 may get installed en masse, on all the newly produced planes.

All that is speculation, of course. One thing that, while also speculation, seems fairly sure is that all these russian engines ordered so far are not tvc variant. It just seems logical they're not, as then all these j10s that are flying must've got some other engine. Plus one can't just pop in a tvc variant where there used to be a non tvc engine.

 

[dollarman]

Hmm...after doing some research, it looks like the reason China is importing more Russian engines may be due to the time needed to improve the WS-10A, as perhaps it may not have been ready for en masse production as thought.

What akinkhoo said appears to be correct. Without FADEC, the WS-10A may not have been reliable enough for single-engine application. Another problem I read about is that the Chinese engine took nearly twice as long to reach the performance level of the AL-31after starting. Since this is mainly a problem with safety (if the engine fails), I guess the PLAAF deemed it alright to have a few WS-10As installed on J-10s. I'm thinking a few extra months of refinement (probably done already, they just need to test) produced some solutions to the problems. It still may be up to 5 years before we see WS-10B with FADEC.

Back to the AL-31, the AL-31FN M1 is still an AL-FN. However, it its the baseline version China has just bought, I must say I'm rather diassapointed. I was hoping at least it would be uprated and have increased reliability. Who knows, the engines may be for a new J-10 type (with limited upgrades).

 

[RedMercury]

I think the likely answer, which has been pointed out a few times already, is that the production process of the WS-10A is lengthy and complicated, so engine production cannot keep up with both J-10 and J-11B production, hence some J-10s are powered by imports.

 

[tphuang]

Hmm...after doing some research, it looks like the reason China is importing more Russian engines may be due to the time needed to improve the WS-10A, as perhaps it may not have been ready for en masse production as thought.

What akinkhoo said appears to be correct. Without FADEC, the WS-10A may not have been reliable enough for single-engine application. Another problem I read about is that the Chinese engine took nearly twice as long to reach the performance level of the AL-31after starting. Since this is mainly a problem with safety (if the engine fails), I guess the PLAAF deemed it alright to have a few WS-10As installed on J-10s. I'm thinking a few extra months of refinement (probably done already, they just need to test) produced some solutions to the problems. It still may be up to 5 years before we see WS-10B with FADEC.

the problem mentionned there are with WS-10, not 10A. They have always been going with both engines, but AL-31FN represent a larger part of the fleet.

Back to the AL-31, the AL-31FN M1 is still an AL-FN. However, it its the baseline version China has just bought, I must say I'm rather diassapointed. I was hoping at least it would be uprated and have increased reliability. Who knows, the engines may be for a new J-10 type (with limited upgrades).

The one they showed in Beijing airshow has TVC nozzle, doesn't sound like baseline to me.

I think the likely answer, which has been pointed out a few times already, is that the production process of the WS-10A is lengthy and complicated, so engine production cannot keep up with both J-10 and J-11B production, hence some J-10s are powered by imports.

part of the problem only, WS-10A is a young engine, not as mature as AL-31FN, so not as reiable. Right now, FM1 probably has better service life and thrust, so that's why it's still getting orders.

 

[dollarman]

So your saying the engine described in the order is the AL-31FN M1 with TVC? Or did I just accidentally misconstrue my words so you thought I was trying to say something else...? I didn't mean to say the one they showed in Beijing was baseline, I was asking whether the ones China just bought were.

 

[Violet Oboe]

Perhaps PLAAF has ordered the new batch of 50 AL-31FN for creating a reserve stock of replacement engines for the already existing J-10 fleet.

Chinese planners are known to take always a worst case scenario into account and they have to prepare China's aerospace industry for ´rainy days´in sino-russian relations although that kind of development appears to be rather unlikely from a current perspective. After all China has already experienced a breakdown of relations with the USSR back in 1960 and every responsible chinese official would be aware of this. :coffee:

Another explanation of the additional engine order would be more innocuous however since Chengdu probably only wants to speed up J-10 production in the short run and there are simply not enough WS-10A available to achieve that aim.

 

[challenge]

surpringly China do not select AL-41,AL-41 which are more powerful than AL-31FN,but also super cruise capability.
according to air international,during close in "dog fight",the F-15C has difficulty shooting down against F-22 flying at super cruise.with this a lot countries such as sweden already planning super cruise capability for gripen.

 

[Totoro]

al41 may not be in serial production yet. Didn't they say that first su-35s would be equipped with a weaker engine until al41 is ready? Also, stronger engine requires more air. Su35 has, for example, enlarged intakes. So physical modifications on the planes would also be needed. And we must not forget engine is just one part of the equation that may give a plane the ability to go supersonic without afterburners. There's also aerodynamics of the plane, especially with full external stores to consider.

 

[dollarman]

Ok, I think I have the just of this based off of what tphuang posted. China's current fleet of J-10s is equipped with both AL-31FN and WS-10A, with a majority having AL-31. Then this new purchase is for the AL-31FN M1, which will be used to equip a new J-10 model. Easy enough, but this gives rise to a huge number of questions...please answer somebody:

How many J-10s are there right now? Most figure point towards 100, but I think that can't be right. We know as fact that all 54 of the first batch of AL-31's went into fighters. So thats 54 right there. But then the next 100 ordered in 2005 is when the problems arise. Since China has just ordered more engines, that must mean this batch is used up or close to being used up. If all 100 were put into fighters, then that means China would have around 150 J-10s. But if 20-30 (a logical and resonable ration) were kept as spares, then the number would be 120-130. Still higher than the 100 most sources give. Plus there are the J-10s using WS-10A.

Second question: If this new batch of J-10s using the AL-31FN M1's (we'll call this the J-10AX) is indeed going to be produced, what will happen to J-10's produced with WS-10A? Will it halt altogether with WS-10A supplies directed to J-11B? Or will China manufacture other J-10AX's with the same avionic and sensor upgrades but with WS-10A?

Third question: Is China liscence producing AL-31FN M1? Because it is only the first in a planned series of upgrades Russia has for the AL-31.

Fourth question: This new engine order is contradictory to the report saying that China had suspended new contracts with Russia until the cargo planes were delivered. What gives?

 

[Deino]

... Easy enough, but this gives rise to a huge number of questions...please answer somebody:....

For me too !!!

Anyway once again an older lineup of several prototypes + pre-serials !