New J-10 thread II

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crobato

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The sensors data fusion means that each contact or signal identified as a potential target or threat by every enough accurate sensor is projected on a tactical situation display, you can have data from the Electronic War System, Radar, Data Link or IRST, not neccesary all "sensors" but 2 or 3 "sensors" in the majority of cases. This data can be exploited to engage those targets and potential threats, or give backup to the Electronic War Sys.

It's enough ?

We all understand that. There are examples in the PLA that requires sensor and data fusion to work, such as the KJ-2000 and the Type 052C.

Though we don't know exactly what the J-10 has in mind, it does not have an IRST, but it is very likely to have a datalink, probably inspired from the ones the Su-27SKs and Su-30MKKs have, which allows for four or 16 peer to peer relationship.
 

crobato

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Redundancy and resistance to EMP. Redundancy requires, at least in the traditional paradigm, 3 times as much circuitry to do the same thing. The 3 independent systems vote on the solution, so even if one fails the correct answer is still given.

What you are describing works for the FCS only.

To resist EMP, either systems must be heavily shielded in faraday boxes or the line widths must be wide enough to conduct high currents without melting. These factors are contrary to the design considerations which drive commercial technology.

Chips are shielded in gold containers which doubles as a cosmic ray shield due to the density of the gold, as well as a heat sink due to gold's heat conductivity. If you remember computers back in the eighties, many chips are shipped in gold containers as opposed to plastic ones. These are military grade chips that occasionally get dumped into the commercial market. However, as commercial chips become increasingly specialized, there are less and less of "gold" chips being shipped.

The real reason why military chips are well behind commercial ones is because the military development and testing cycles of systems that use those chips take such a long long time that Moore's Law would have happened as many times during that time period.
 

Scratch

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Though we don't know exactly what the J-10 has in mind, it does not have an IRST ...

Not sure if it was discussed before, think it might have. Is there an IRST pod available for the J-10?
I think for it's PGMs it should/ will(?) have a FLIR pod. Can those avonics also be effectively used for IRST tasks and perhaps to cue PL-8 with the HMS?
I also would guess that follow on J-10 versions will have an integrated IRST, I believe for future areal combat those are essential.
 

tphuang

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Not sure if it was discussed before, think it might have. Is there an IRST pod available for the J-10?
I think for it's PGMs it should/ will(?) have a FLIR pod. Can those avonics also be effectively used for IRST tasks and perhaps to cue PL-8 with the HMS?
I also would guess that follow on J-10 versions will have an integrated IRST, I believe for future areal combat those are essential.

yes, due to space issues I believe, J-10 did not have built in IRST, it has to carry IRST pod. We've seen pictures of IRST been advertised a while back with J-10 shown as the aircraft carrying it. And from JF-17, it's apparent that the avionics is built to handle input from IRST/FLIR pod.
 

crobato

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Not sure if it was discussed before, think it might have. Is there an IRST pod available for the J-10?
I think for it's PGMs it should/ will(?) have a FLIR pod. Can those avonics also be effectively used for IRST tasks and perhaps to cue PL-8 with the HMS?
I also would guess that follow on J-10 versions will have an integrated IRST, I believe for future areal combat those are essential.


FLIR/IRST pods are used for ground missions, not air to air missions. To use one for air to air, the placement of the IRST should have been more convenient, at least somewhere that will cover the upper hemisphere of the plane.
 

Scratch

Captain
FLIR/IRST pods are used for ground missions, not air to air missions. To use one for air to air, the placement of the IRST should have been more convenient, at least somewhere that will cover the upper hemisphere of the plane.

I generally agree with you that the placement of targeting pods on aircraft make them rather ill suited for IRST missions.
It's just that I thought I had read an article about a new pod for F-18s that can also perform the IRST role, however I can't find it again and I maybe wrong with that.
With all the modernisation PLA is getting, I was just wondering about that sort of thech in J-10 as their really self-designed plane.
With the forthcoming of stealth features and advancements in IR/EO devices, their value in A-A combat might rather rise than fall. Therefore, having at least a limited capability might be better than having none.
I would personally exspect future J-10 upgrades to have build in IRST systems, but am not familiar enough with the programs to be somewhat sure.

It perhaps somewhat depends on how far the changes for the next J-10 version go. If there are really changes in the aerodynamic layout, maybe they found space for an IRST, wich seemed to be a problem according to tphuang.

At a certain point the F-4s (E? verion) recieved a FLIR device under the nose. If I'm correct they could also be used on air targers.(?) That under the nose position would at least offer a greater FOV than conventional pods.
 

Twix101

Junior Member
Now, the tail slide maneuver probably was not anticipated in the movement models of the time, so when a Mig or Su performed it, the radar expected the plane to keep moving forward, so it scanned in front of the plane. However, not getting any returns, it loses lock and has to go back to searching again. How was this fixed? You could add a probability of a backward movement happening, esp. if the target is flying upwards (or if the radar believes the plane is such and such model). And you could go to more complicated tracking methods where more than one guess of the target location is kept in memory at a time (at the cost of more computations to track the target), with the ambiguity eventually resolved with the arrival of more information.

Hehe, you are describing the "beaming" manoeuver, the new AESA/PESA Radar can manage with those kind of tactics due to their tracking method & speed.
 

crobato

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Yes, there appears to be a FLIR/LT pod for the J-10, well actually it was first developed for the JH-7A but appears it can be used on the J-10. The use of LGBs is currently one of the few PGM options for the J-10 for now.

I agree that there is probably a space problem for the J-10 to put an IRST on. Lets not forget it will also have aerodynamic consequences, more so because the canards, your control surfaces, are that close to the nose.

The closest thing to built in EO the J-10 may have right now, and I would frankly say it is very likely to have (particularly looking at the holes at the tail) is an optical MAWS system, which was revealed for the J-11B and the JF-17. Such a system can also be used to give warnings of approaching aircraft from the back and lower hemispheres of the aircraft.
 

crobato

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J-10 low level DACT vs. Su-27 in the Chengdu MR under heavy ECM conditions. Very likely the 44th Division J-10s playing with the 33rd Division Su-27s and J-11s.

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A google translation of some parts in the first page.

Su singled F 10 27 - 4-0 victory

Most combat during the confrontation is the main PL-12 air combat weapons

View Abstract: confrontation training is to enhance the combat capacity of the fundamental way to deepen the current training is an important aspect of reform. In recent years, the Chengdu Military Region Air Force focus on fulfilling the new century and new period of the mission firmly established the ideological line of fighting and training, the requirements by persisting in combat training organizations, the confrontation through the whole training to confront the powerful traction real combat training to the in-depth development to exercise closer to the battlefields of the future troops of the information under combat rising.

This is in the Chengdu Military Region of the Air Force combat exercise in coordination scene --

Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau, they organized two new long-distance aircraft defense forces, fighting at close range, that runs through the complex electromagnetic environment;

Bashu earth, they organized the new aircraft unit cross-regional mobile thousands of kilometers, and missile forces, radar units, the Army's air defense forces work together in integrated air and ground combat;

The northwest desert, they organized the new aircraft unit and aviation division command team Corps conducted more than 200 sorties contract tactical combat ...

Against the blue sky through the smoke, the reporter found: confrontation training, has permeated into air combat training troops in the whole process as the tireless pursuit of the drill ground and the main theme.

The first loss against the powerful, in a stampede out of a cold sweat at the same time, they reaffirmed their determination to strengthen the confrontation training --

At a higher level promote strong confrontation

Su singled F 10 27 - 4-0 victory

PL-12-27 to use than the R-27 series better, combat electronic equipment in some respects than the Su-27, K-27 was the villain Meng was normal.

In 2006, 10% of the air force's combat training, is a milestone in the transition years.

This year, an Air Corps owned equipment production in China has independently developed a new generation of fighter planes, converted to a scientific training, has formed a combat capacity. I delight, a space of the "squad" to a deeper, look at the bigger picture, decided to create a truly regiment fighting the "blue army" as "whetstone" and the "touchstone" to test and Studying the region of the air force's combat training results.

In early spring, they organized the Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau in a real combat drills, to the adoption of new aircraft "on a confrontation", clarifying the weaponry "floor" to test the new aircraft unit tactics and training methods, in-depth training to provide the basis of actual combat.

The first day of trial, were fluttering spring, diffuse clouds. Two different equipment, different ideas of the new aircraft unit in the complex electromagnetic environment wholly engaged in a fierce confrontation. The result is always in confrontation incomparable scenery of the "Red Army", in the face of strong opponents exposed many "weaknesses" in the "one pair of 2" contests, several rounds most of the loss will soon lost. The next day the "one-on-one" confrontation, has been launched not long "blue army" caught off guard amid have to come up.

A drill ended, the party committee immediately convened into space agencies, the Air Force units Leaders of the regiment, pilots, electronic countermeasures and research units, the experts conducted a special analysis, we open on the issue, sharply find our discrepancies. In the intense debate, the meeting opened two full days.

At the "red side" Leaders of the regiment repeatedly Reflection: The loss is the main reason to eat a complex electromagnetic environment of losses, intangible right past us very superficial understanding of the battlefield, the complex electromagnetic environment not feasible tactics, air combat pilots use electronic equipment capacity is not high.
 
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