New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

mossen

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Lots of talk about JVs here. Well, after BYD, Stellantis-Leap are going to produce cars in the EU. Admittedly this is an existing factory, but still interesting.

So far, Chinese EVs have performed pretty underwhelming in Europe. NIO just left Denmark recently after flopping badly. BYD cars are overpriced for so-so quality. The only Chinese-owned brands that have done well have many decades of name recognition (Volvo and MG). It seems clear that the Chinese OEMs need factories on the ground to make a serious dent.

To be clear, the Stellantis-Leap JV is mostly in the hands of Stellantis. But for smaller players like Leap, I don't see any other option. I wonder if we will see the VW-Xpeng partnership move in a similar direction, with Xpeng models potentially being produced in VW factories. I don't see Xpeng having the capital to invest abroad and tariffs are likely to rise going forward.
 

henrik

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Show some proof that SAIC is in a better financial position than Leapmotor

SAIC & JSW is not a forced deal. SAIC decided it wants to stay in Indian market and accepted those terms. It could've tried to keep selling vehicles into India and paying huge tariffs.

Are you actually concerned about Indian steel maker stealing SAIC IP? Is this a joke? Can you tell me what kind of innovation SAIC has come up with that's so precious? And can you tell me how a steel maker with no background in EVs would make use of the tech that it will get in the JV?

India does not have to be more reasonable than China. India is the most protectionist country in the world. If you want to access its market, you need to deal with its oligarchs and tycoons. A lot of people in the west are/were angry that China forced them to share tech & do 50/50 deal. So you and other Chinese online folks being angry at Indian mean nothing.

If you cannot actually explain to me what IP JSW will steal from SAIC, then you are just being emotional.

As Apple and Tesla are trying to sell more in India, are the Indians forcing them to hire local Indians as management the same way they asked for Xiaomi?
 
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tphuang

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As Apple and Tesla are trying to sell more in India, are the Indians forcing them to hire local Indians as management the same way they asked for Xiaomi?
have you seen Apple's market share in India?

As for Tesla, they made this major change to entice Tesla to set up shop there
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but note this
companies that meet the requirements will be allowed to import up to 8,000 EVs costing $35,000 or more a year at a lower tax rate of 15%. India currently levies a tax of 70% or 100% on imported EVs depending on their value.
so even with this low, Tesla can only export 8000 per year at that lower tax rate.

Getting into India market is a long and hard process
 

Bellum_Romanum

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It seems that some of us here are getting too vexed and outright insecure when it comes to India. Indian consumer market can't be relied upon to absorb what these western firms are getting from the Chinese market. Most of us on this forum must be already aware that in terms of actual consumer size we're talking about less than 50 million people for a country with a billion plus pop.

@henrik @coolgod
 

henrik

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I heard they are underpriced for their superb quality in Asia. Where did you hear they are only so-so quality? Only time I heard that is on Bjorn Nyland reviews.

BYDs are more expensive in Europe due to tariffs and lack of sales network but quality is good.

Chinese EV quality easily is better than European cars. BYD EVs are more expensive due to lack of supply. As more BYD transport ships are available, more supply to Europe will drive down prices.
 

TK3600

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This is nothing like the Stellantis Leapmotor JV. Leapmotor was a private company suffering from financial difficulties and needed cash infusion, while SAIC is a State Owned Enterprise which wasn't facing financial difficulties. Also Stellantis acquired 20% of Leapmotor, which means Stellantis has an interest to see Leapmotor succeed, while the SAIC and JSW (forced deal) is just India trying to steal Chinese EV IP and supply chains.

Shanghai compradors is literally using Chinese taxpayers to subsidize Indian EV supply chains.

Inb4 someone cries that China forced JV ownership too, so what's the big deal. China only set a maximum 50% foreign share ownership on auto JV from 1994, which was raised to 70% in 2018 and 100% in 2022. I don't think China ever forced foreigner auto manufacturers to give up control of their JV, especially not after the JV was already formed. Hence the Chinese anger towards this Indian pig butchering scam.

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For real. There is no defending it. The best excuse people come up is "business people miscalculate, their own fault." When it happens consistently it is up to state to intervene. It is like drugs. People cannot be counted on stop "obvious mistakes", so state ban drugs.
 

tphuang

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For real. There is no defending it. The best excuse people come up is "business people miscalculate, their own fault." When it happens consistently it is up to state to intervene. It is like drugs. People cannot be counted on stop "obvious mistakes", so state ban drugs.
It's not up to state to stop it. Automakers are businesses. The current Chinese market is bloody for everyone. Should these businesses stop selling in China? Aside from making people angry, what is the different between just losing money in a market vs making some money in a market and then get told you need to sell 51% of your control, because you are making too much money?

don't pretend you know the economics of a certain situation

here is the current market for automakers in China

SAIC GM is now stopping production on some Chevrolet model. You can see SAIC facing collapsing sales in China everywhere based on monthly registration numbers. Do people still think SAIC can just afford to leave overseas market where they can charge 2x for the cars?
 

gelgoog

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It is the survival of the fittest. But I wouldn't worry too much about SAIC. They have some lines which sell well. Even internationally their MG brand is still doing better than BYD is.

Still, I expect BYD and another local player or two like Li Auto to gobble up the Chinese auto market.
 
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