New Chinese Military Developments

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

Who exactly came up with the idea that China is developing a heavy super tank? We should flog him with a wet towel until his arse is red and swollen.

A heavy tank goes completely against all eastern military thinking, the concept of operational art is deeply rooted in China's military theories, it deemphasises the importance of individual battles, and puts its attention on the effect of a culmination of battles and events between battles that are unified by time and geography, so, whether their tank can defeat western tanks in standing battle is not some of great concern to them, the Chinese just want their tank formations to appear at the right place (deep behind enemy lines) at the right time (within 3 days of the start of offensive) they will be happy.

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

Some quick comments about Dutch Infantry's post: The Leo-2, Sir, may be the best tank in the world. As an American military veteran, I long ago learned that comparing weapons is an 'apples and oranges' proposition and tells us nothing at all about the likely outcome of the next war.

History gives us some useful tidbits of information, though:

1. China will become the world's largest economy sometime in the next few decades. If a "super tank" can be built, and if the PLA decide they need one, they will build it. And they will deploy it in far larger numbers than Holland or Germany will.

2. The "Arrogant U.S.", (sic)doesn't claim to have the world's best tank. They do agree with other military experts that the M-1 Abrams family of tanks are 'among' the best. The main differance between between the M-1 and the Leo-2 are that we have about 8,000 M-1s, they do not go into combat alone--they fight in concert with AH-64 Apache and A-10 Warthog aircraft and...the United States is not afraid to use it's M-1s when needed. (German or Dutch Leo-1 and Leo-2 MBTs have not seen combat. Canadian Leo-1s are fighting in Afghanistan, btw.)

3. The PLA ground forces do not need a supertank. Their current generation medium tanks are quite good enough to do the job. (Remember another very large army of mostly conscripted and un-tested soldiers who liberated Holland from the Nazis in WW2? We did it with quite inferior M4 Sherman tanks and we learned how to fight and defeat the vaunted German army as we went.)

4. The Chinese seem to be building up a competant and professional army. They are equipping it with very workman-like systems drawn from the best ideas of both East and West. History tells us that they are doing this to protect themselves and nothing more. China has been invaded and abused by Japanese pirates, Mongols, Manchus, Europeans(including the Dutch and Germans), Muslim Central Asians, Imperial Japan, Imperial Russia...
They deserve to be militarily secure. I wish them the best in that effort. I hope they understand that us Americans will contend for the top spot as long as we can afford to do so. And we will be quite a bit wealthier for several decades yet.

Ben James
Oklahoma, USA

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

according janes def. weekly , the number of type-98/99 is only 150, while TW claim the number is 100.
the reason why only limited few number of type-98/99 were constructed was her high cost,instead they opt for cheaper type-96,modified T-59,component can be interchangeable.and modified T-59-T-59D and T-59-1;kindly look like "super M-60"

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

I would say about 300 which is equivalent to a division, with 1 brigade having a hundred tanks. The news I get is that the ZTZ-99s are able to fill up an entire division, and another division might be converted. Probably the 6th Division? The division should be like both a show unit and a trials unit to develop and form tactics.

I do think that the PLA's priority is not in the tanks but in modernizing the air force and the navy.

I would agree with Akita/Ben James here. I think the PLA looks to the Sherman/T-34/Panzer Mk. IV as their model they wish to emulate rather than try to field few, complicated, and overly heavy "elite" super tanks.

Even if you have super tanks, they would only be useful in only certain regions. The more south you go, the more difficult it is to conduct tank warfare. Remember, tanks have proven to be indecisive in almost every modern asian war except one, when the Soviet Union took on the IJA in Manchuria.

Combined forces are more important. Overall mechanization of the army is more important---the bulk of the PLA's upgrade has been on vehicles like IFVs.

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

The northern Asia region is the perfect battle ground for tanks of any size and shape. You can not name another place on earth better than this region for tanks, none.

I think the Chinese are very entertained with themselves with the idea of a bigger and heavier tank.

Any continental country with vast and open land would be foolish not to be thinking about heavy land machines.

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

As a Soviet-Rassian im more German and yes the Leopard 2a6 is a good tank, it was build is chobhum armor along with the Americans, French, and the Brittish. A supertank build by China i doubt it. Oh an Go Bundeshwehr, but still welcome.:china:

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

jackbh said:

The northern Asia region is the perfect battle ground for tanks of any size and shape. You can not name another place on earth better than this region for tanks, none.

I think the Chinese are very entertained with themselves with the idea of a bigger and heavier tank.

Any continental country with vast and open land would be foolish not to be thinking about heavy land machines.

Click to expand...

Northern China has a smallish plain area, the rest is extremely hilly and/ or builtup. Manchuria slightly bigger. Neither of which is in 'Northern Asia' anyway, that lies in RUSSIA.

And unless you actually think invasion of mainland China or Chinese invasion of Siberia and/or Fareast is likely... then all of this is in any way irrelevant.

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

The tanks of China (type 96,98,99) are exellent but are in poor numbers compared with the same generation MBT-s of its enemies(the U.S. alone,not mentioning them combined,N.A.T.O)the same accounts for their airforce aircrafts or navy vessels.They have suckhois,submarines and surface combattants but still in poor numbers(the latest generations)China now is using its deterrence factor as a mean of defence.That translates like this:"if you attack me you will bleed like hell,and will be seriously hurt even if you win"With this numbers or quantities (of the latest generation of military hardware)the ability of China's regular armed forces to resist in prolonged major combat operations is seriosly in doubt.Now you will say"we are nuclear"I can say "you can put your nuclear in .....cause america and russia are developing anti ballistic missiles(defenses)and all analists say that nuclear ballistic weapons will be obsolete by the half of the 21-st century(search about H.A.A.R.P)But there is another scenario.What if some diversive group inside the main superpowers is interested in destroing the respective peoples and dont worry about the human cost.You should know that both armies of Russia and America are capable of operating even after an atomic holocaust has commenced.They have developed these capabilities to survive in such enviromnents.So what you gonna do with your nukes then.The development of necessary hardware quality and quantity remains crucial and very important.

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

The PLA is wisely modernizing along the lines of its most probable future conflicts. War with any country on Chinese territory is only a remote possibility, and grows less likely by the year. What nation would intentinally start a war on Chinese or American soil? None, no one.

In that case, why would China invest badly needed billions on heavy and expensive supertanks? They are fielding competant, increasingly modern medium tanks that are more strategically mobile, (by ship, rail, truck and cargo plane), than the West's 'big five' (Merkava, Chally-2, Leo-2, Abrams A2 and Le Clerc, and more in line with the weight class of the Orientals, (Korea's K-1 is 51-53 tons, Japan's current medium tank is the same).

Is China developing technollagy useful to a 'super tank' project? Probably. Do they need it? No. For the foreseeable future China only needs to fight insurgents in the far west and south, maintain military pressure on Taiwan and back up her claims in the Spratleys, etc...

A much more telling program is the massive mechanization of the down-sized PLA land forces. Thousands of new generation Humvee type 4x4s, BJ Jeeps, Shaanqi SX-series tactical trucks, etc... are changing the "army with clay feet" to an army that can move where it is needed, when needed. I think that is smarter than any 'super tank' project.

If you really want to see China's new super tank, look it up on this website under 'Z-10 attack helicopter.' This neat little machine, (it is half the gross take-off weight of the AH-64 and about the size of the A-129 Mangusta/Tonal/ATAK), will be much more helpful in any future land war than a western-style MBT.

Ben James
Oklahoma, USA

Re: new Chinese supertank,question....

A supertank as a concept isn't bad.But you should draw your priorities.If you had enough airpower and naval power to ensure that the enemy doesn't get total air and sea dominance (like in Iraq and Afghanistan,or Serbia)you could have the luxury to think and maybe develop a supertank.But i think China needs other things right now.Maybe you could develop a prototype.Laying down and producing a single model to test,doesn't weigh much on military budget,some tens of millions for the company wich will win the project-contract,like in the Pentagon.The costly part comes when you decide that this model should be produced in series(full production)