New Chinese Military Developments
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noone536
Junior Member
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
actually i think china shouldn't have a super tank because they don't really need them. all they need is air supeority and almost all moving target in the ground is useless because it could be attack from air thefore i think they should spend more money in researching fith generation planes
actually i think china shouldn't have a super tank because they don't really need them. all they need is air supeority and almost all moving target in the ground is useless because it could be attack from air thefore i think they should spend more money in researching fith generation planes
Pointblank
Senior Member
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
It was the Type 98/99 thread, but I will repost what I said:
I suspect the 140mm cannon is one of those "good ideas" which will never see the light of day; armies have been playing around with the 140mm cannon since the 1980's but in the end the size/weight/space issues probably outweigh any gains in firepower. At a minimum, I don't see any tank using a 140 unless there is an autoloader included or two piece ammunition.
As a historical comparison, the Germans figured that if an 88 was great in a Tiger, then a 128mm would be even better in a "Jagdtiger", but the end result was so big and heavy that it was practically immobile, carried fewer rounds and took longer to get into action.
It can be argued that the upper useful limit of main guns have been reached with the current 120/125mm main guns; any further increases in caliber is subject to the law of diminishing returns. The only possible advantage to the 140mm would be making gun launched missiles slightly easier to design in order to squeeze into the dimensions allowed.
It was the Type 98/99 thread, but I will repost what I said:
I suspect the 140mm cannon is one of those "good ideas" which will never see the light of day; armies have been playing around with the 140mm cannon since the 1980's but in the end the size/weight/space issues probably outweigh any gains in firepower. At a minimum, I don't see any tank using a 140 unless there is an autoloader included or two piece ammunition.
As a historical comparison, the Germans figured that if an 88 was great in a Tiger, then a 128mm would be even better in a "Jagdtiger", but the end result was so big and heavy that it was practically immobile, carried fewer rounds and took longer to get into action.
It can be argued that the upper useful limit of main guns have been reached with the current 120/125mm main guns; any further increases in caliber is subject to the law of diminishing returns. The only possible advantage to the 140mm would be making gun launched missiles slightly easier to design in order to squeeze into the dimensions allowed.
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
Just look at history, when it was in the period of world war II, the German thought that 128mm was too big and heavy to be practical, but look at what's happening right now, we have 120mm and 125mm. And they are not too big for today's tanks.
There is no way that you can say tank guns have reached their upper limit at 120mm or 125mm. Today armor is getting a whole lot thicker and stronger with better composite materials. The 120 and 125 guns will have trouble penetrating the armor. At that point, you would have no choice but getting a better gun either by increased the size or any other way you can think of.
140mm was not possible before because there was no stronger steel for the gun. Using weeker steel had rupture the gun while firing, but China has gotten better steel from technology in making steel from Germany.
Just look at history, when it was in the period of world war II, the German thought that 128mm was too big and heavy to be practical, but look at what's happening right now, we have 120mm and 125mm. And they are not too big for today's tanks.
There is no way that you can say tank guns have reached their upper limit at 120mm or 125mm. Today armor is getting a whole lot thicker and stronger with better composite materials. The 120 and 125 guns will have trouble penetrating the armor. At that point, you would have no choice but getting a better gun either by increased the size or any other way you can think of.
140mm was not possible before because there was no stronger steel for the gun. Using weeker steel had rupture the gun while firing, but China has gotten better steel from technology in making steel from Germany.
Pointblank
Senior Member
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
No.
The issue is multi-fold. First off, an increase in the gun size means that there is an decrease in the amount of ammunition carried on the same armoured vehicle. To carry more ammunition, you need a bigger vehicle, which entails more armour, which means your vehicle is less mobile.
Secondly, another issue is crew capability. 120mm rounds are already very heavy; 140mm rounds will be at a point where an average human being cannot be able to carry and load ammo fast enough. Therefore, you either have to go for an autoloader, or switch to two-piece ammunition.
No.
The issue is multi-fold. First off, an increase in the gun size means that there is an decrease in the amount of ammunition carried on the same armoured vehicle. To carry more ammunition, you need a bigger vehicle, which entails more armour, which means your vehicle is less mobile.
Secondly, another issue is crew capability. 120mm rounds are already very heavy; 140mm rounds will be at a point where an average human being cannot be able to carry and load ammo fast enough. Therefore, you either have to go for an autoloader, or switch to two-piece ammunition.
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
why are you saying NO, no as to what?
I can't see why you couldn't live with fewer ammo if this is a tank killer. With a more powerful gun, you will able to kill an enemy with less shots anyway.
Dealing with lesser enemies you have lighter tanks which can carry more shots.
why are you saying NO, no as to what?
I can't see why you couldn't live with fewer ammo if this is a tank killer. With a more powerful gun, you will able to kill an enemy with less shots anyway.
Dealing with lesser enemies you have lighter tanks which can carry more shots.
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
Of course having a big gun might have some advantage against enemy's tanks, but it would be having less rounds. Of course you could argue that it would take less rounds to kill an enemy, but the problem is can you hit the enemy accurately. There are more to shooting an enemy than just point and kill. Targeting computer, range finder, and very experience and trained crew.
That is why we must strike a balance of having a big calibre gun, amount of ammunition, weigh, logistic, engineering aspect, etc.
If what you say about using less rounds to kill an enemy, then why don't you just load the tank with missiles? It would carry much less missiles, but one missile can kill one tank, and at a much higher accuracy.
Also the main job of a tank is not to hunt another tank, there are other task for the tanks too. I am not a tankee or even served in an armoured force before, so what I said is base on an outsider point of view.
Hope not to offend anyone.
Thanks.
Of course having a big gun might have some advantage against enemy's tanks, but it would be having less rounds. Of course you could argue that it would take less rounds to kill an enemy, but the problem is can you hit the enemy accurately. There are more to shooting an enemy than just point and kill. Targeting computer, range finder, and very experience and trained crew.
That is why we must strike a balance of having a big calibre gun, amount of ammunition, weigh, logistic, engineering aspect, etc.
If what you say about using less rounds to kill an enemy, then why don't you just load the tank with missiles? It would carry much less missiles, but one missile can kill one tank, and at a much higher accuracy.
Also the main job of a tank is not to hunt another tank, there are other task for the tanks too. I am not a tankee or even served in an armoured force before, so what I said is base on an outsider point of view.
Hope not to offend anyone.
Thanks.
Re: new Chinese supertank,question....
Of course there are other vehicles to do other more specific jobs. That is just common sense.
What I meant in the main job of heavy tank is not just to kill other tank, killing other tank is just one of the job for heavy tank. It was also acting as an assault platform, pyschological effect on enemy and even act as artillery unit.
If you are talking about just knocking other tanks out, then I would also tell you the same thing that you have told me - there are plenty of other vehicle to do the job.
Of course there are other vehicles to do other more specific jobs. That is just common sense.
What I meant in the main job of heavy tank is not just to kill other tank, killing other tank is just one of the job for heavy tank. It was also acting as an assault platform, pyschological effect on enemy and even act as artillery unit.
If you are talking about just knocking other tanks out, then I would also tell you the same thing that you have told me - there are plenty of other vehicle to do the job.