Naval Helicopter thread

[Curious George]

Kamov aren't the only ones capable of making co-axial helicopters. Sikorsky has made at least 2 prototypes over the years, one in the 70's called the S-69:

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and a more recent one in the 00's called the X2:

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If China can somehow acquire details of the S-69 from Sikorsky (which might be doable since its an old project from the 70's), they might be able to develop their own co-axial helicopter based on the S-69 without having to deal with Kamov. Who knows, maybe China can even do a 50/50 co-development deal with Sikorsky if they really are that interested in developing co-axial helicopters like the KA-28. The Sikorsky S-76 is already being built in China, so perhaps the next step is the co-developement of a helicopter similar to the old S-69 prototype.

 

[Quickie]

Actually, we have to ask ourselves, why no one in the world other than Kamov, which is building the counter blades system. Is it something that other finds troubling? but of course no one is pointing it out for whatever reasons.

Conventional helicopters are good enough without running into more risk. And I really think that China do not really need to build a helicopter that look like the Ka-28 (completed with counterblades).

What I meant was moving towards a new class of helicopters (conventional type) in the same weight class as Ka-28 with similar performances and specification.

I'm aware of the engineering challenge of having counterblades but I'm not so sure having counterblades is actually riskier since they may actually back up each other if one of them underperforms for some reason. The engineering of it may be more complicated but would the helicopter end up being safer or less safe? Would the Ka-28 just float down if one of the pair of rotor blades fails?

 

[Quickie]

I love the over confidence of some on this site.

"it shouldn't be too difficult to move on to the Ka-28 class."

Kamov is the only firm building counter rotating helos, and has been at it for many decades. That experience will not be caught up quickly or easily. Possible, of course, but do not underestimate the value of a team of engineers who have been there and done that many many times before. There is an intuitive feel for the product that only time and experience can build. This is not easily duplicated, even when you have the product in hand. Ask anyone who has tried to suss out any modern BMW without a lot of hand holding from a trained tech.

Already explained to Rhino. I was referring to the conventional type.

Anyway, I wouldn't see doing something entirely new as being over confident. China shouldn't be too conservative in trying new stuffs, especially now that she has come a long way technologically and scientifically compared to those early days.

 

[Scratch]

Since a coaxial design doesn't need the lever arm for the tail rotor, it might be more compact, even though height increases.
If one of the two rotors performance is degraded for whatever reason and as a result produces a different amount of lift, that also means they produce a different amount of torque, leading to an uncontrolled movement around the vertical axis, as there's no tail rotor to counteract that torque.

 

[Quickie]

"If one of the two rotors performance is degraded for whatever reason and as a result produces a different amount of lift, that also means they produce a different amount of torque, leading to an uncontrolled movement around the vertical axis, as there's no tail rotor to counteract that torque. "


I imagined that, too, but at least the descent could be slow enough. Not sure about the real statistics though.

 

[Ambivalent]

Why not just build a helicopter with conventional layout but has similar capabilities.

Does anyone know any advantage to use counter rotating blades that the Russians use?

Here's the gouge on co-axial rotors. I have some hand on so I know of where I speak, having flown tandem, tail and co-axial rotors. Tail rotors suck power that could be used for lift or for speed in forward flight. All they do is counteract main rotor torque, robbing the helo of roughly 20% of it's potential lifting power. Tail rotors are exquisitely sensitive to side winds and tail winds. They will weather vane all over the place and make the pilot sweat bullets trying to hold a stable hover into a side wind or even moreso into a quartering tail wind. Tandem rotor helos simply shrug these off, they have no effect. You can fly a Chinook or CH-46 sideways at 70 knots comfortably, I have done so many times.
Co-axial rotor helos like Kamov makes have all the advantages of tandem rotors in terms of making all the craft's power available for lift, and are almost equally unaffected by side and tail winds, with one big advantage and one drawback. The advantage is that the vortices from the upper rotor blades are cancelled by the lower rotor blades, making them very efficient in an out of ground effect hover. They can lift heavy loads like you would not believe. My one flight in a Kamov, we lifted a load I lost in some mud after I suffered an engine failure in a BV-107 in hot and high conditions and had to get rid of my load so I could execute an emergency off field landing. Another BV-107 could not pull my load out, so I saddled up with a Russian pilot in his Kamov to pluck my load out of the mud. It was an experience of a lifetime! Superb machine. Ok, I still like the Chinook better, it is the fastest operational helo in existence and flies so gently, but the Kamov seems to thrive on hard use.
Now for the drawback, the gearbox and mast are awfully heavy. The US Army looked at a similar configuration for a gunship with the Advancing Blade Concept experimental helo, but the great weight of the gearbox cut into the payload and performance, as a gunship. The blades had to be very stiff so they would not collide during hard manuevers, a fault of the KA-50 which has killed three pilots during hard maneuvers when the upper and lower rotor blades came into contact in flight.

 

[tphuang]

this is an article I saw regarding naval helicopter serving for PLANAF, now it was accompanied by a photo of Z-9C, so I'm assuming it's talking about that
Important notes from this article.
- talks about multiple units of a new ASW helicopter (I guess Z-9C) flying from surface fleet and launching torpedoes. This is important, because it confirms that Z-9Cs can carry dipping sonar (photos show this) and torpedoes at the same time.
- also important that they are working together in hunting submarines.
- also says that this used to be a transport helo regiment, now it's a dedicated ASW helo regiment. Which indicates a greater focus in ASW.
- it also indicated that this helicopter is capable of flying at night and also conduct ASW at night time.
- mentions that 80% of pilots can operate all-day, all-weather condition.
- 50% of them have college degree or better, a lot of new pilots

- says they are building new sonar processing software, digital processing system (maybe it's referring to accoustic db here?). They are practicing exercises like escorting fleet and launching precision attack against submarine, OTH guidance attack and all directional reconaissance.

图片：12月10日，在亚丁湾海域，中国海军第四批护航编队的一架舰载直升机进行救生演练。当天，中国海军第四批护航编队举行舰载直升机的救生和滑降演练，旨在提高直升机紧急情况下的救援能力。新华社记者杨志刚摄

隆冬时节，烟波浩淼的东海上空，数架新型舰载反潜直升机飞离水面舰艇，一枚枚反潜鱼雷呼啸而出，钻入深海。随着一阵闷响，“敌”潜艇葬身海底。这是东海舰队航空兵某舰载直升机团一次寻常的小试锋芒。近年来，该团刻苦锤炼反潜硬功，成为搏击海天的“猎鲨鹰隼”。

这个团原为运输直升机团，新世纪初年，某新型反潜直升机列装部队，一下子把该团推向作战前沿。他们主动和潜艇部队建立“空潜一体”协同训练模式，团队完成夜间超低空飞行、超低空悬停、夜间着舰、夜间搜攻潜等实战课目训练。

近年来，面对训练转变重任，该团党委着力打造新一代反潜高素质人才。如今，全团能够指挥作战的飞行员数量大幅增加，全天候飞行员达80%，全团60%的飞行员获得研究生学历，50%的士兵获得大专以上学历，全团涌现出一批全军优秀指挥军官、海军功勋飞行员。

人才建设推动战法训法创新。近年来，他们创新水声处理软件，建立数据处理系统，使情报处理速度和准确率大幅提升。“护航攻潜精确打击”、“超视距引导攻击”、“全方位立体侦察”等一系列新战法取得突破，实现由岸基向舰基、由近海向远海、由运输救护向海上反潜作战的跨越。（钱晓虎、王朝武）

 

[tphuang]

saw this on royfc

Kamov Counting on the "Little One"

They are preparing a new helicopter for mass production


Certification of the new Russian Ka-226T helicopter will be over in 2012, the managing director of the Kumertau Aviation Production Enterprise (KumAPP), Sergey Mikryukov, reported yesterday to Vremya Novostey. He thinks that this lightweight helicopter will be the main product of the enterprise that right now is specializing in the output of heavy rotary-winged aircraft.

The Ka-226T is participating in a tender announced by the Indian government. The winner will receive an order for the delivery to that country of 97 aircraft and the organization of licensed production of 100 more helicopters in India itself. Regardless of the tender results, marketing results of the Vertolety Rossii ((Helicopters of Russia) holding company, in which KumAPP is included, estimates the sale on the export and domestic markets of not less than 800 Ka-226T in the next 15 years.

However, right now KumAPP's main business is the Ka-27/28/31 maritime helicopters for various purposes and the transport and firefighting Ka-32, which was designed on the very same platform. In which connection, 80 percent of this product is going for export, Mr. Mikryukov reported.

Kamov is the only company in the world that designs coaxial helicopters - with two rotors rotating in opposite directions, without a tail rotor. This feature imparts specific capabilities to the Ka aircraft that are especially required at sea: The ability to take off from a pitching deck and return to it and to hover motionless in the air.

KumAPP is fulfilling an order for 18 aircraft of the Chinese navy - nine Ka-28 antisubmarine (six of which already were delivered last year) and nine electrical intelligence and targeting Ka-31 helicopters. The enterprise also has a contract among orders on hand for five Ka-31 for India's navy and two Ka-32 for Azerbaijan (deliveries are expected as early as this year). It also is known that the Russian military submitted an order last year to KumAPP for the 23D2 "internal" Russian version of the Ka-31 radar helicopter. Mr. Mikryukov refused to discuss the physical and financial parameters of this order, referring to state secrecy and he added only that Vertolety Rossii is negotiating with the defense ministry about deliveries of the Ka-27, an antisubmarine helicopter which is a counterpart to the "Chinese" Ka-28.


Source: 08.02.10, Vremya Novostey, Correspondent: Mikhail Kukushkin

we already know about the 9 Ka-28s on order, but 9 Ka-31 is a little bit of a surprise. They did have an order for it in 2006 that never got fulfilled, but I was under the impression that Z-8 AEW program was suppose to take away the need for it.

 

[tphuang]

Pictures of 2 Z-8JH (9416, 9456) practicing landing in a training ground I guess. I find it interesting that this is a new batch of Z-8JH (last one being 95x6). Good to see that they are finally really mass producing Z-8 for the navy, making good use of its large space capacity.

 

[Costas 240GD]

Z-8JA (?) with gun and rocket pods: