Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I do not believe the system only exists in the mind of fanboys. I do not believe Skywatcher has said that either.

I do believe that the system is no where near operationally capable, and that it never will be until they perform a lot of live-fire, full-up systems tests where they actually shoot missiles against manuevering target vessels at sea that mimick carriers and show an ability to hit them consistantly, and improve on that ability over time.

That is a test you cannot hide...and one you must let the international community know about so it is understood that a test is occurring and not an attack.

None of that has ever happened.

Are they trying to devcelop such a system? Sure.

Have they written a lot about it? Absolutely.

Have they perfomred some tests of missiles firing against static targets in the desserts of China? Yes.

But have they never once used a complete C4ISTAR system, with the type of command, control, intelligence, recon, surveil, target acquisition and re-acquisition neceessary and then conducted such a test on a manuevering target at sea...which is what the system is supposedly designed to do.

So, until they do...and show a consistant ability to do so, I will consider the system in its infancy with little real operational capability at all.

OTOH, the SM3 has performed over 70 such tests and has an overall kill rate of what it is designed to shoot down of over 75% and climbing.

Those are significant differences in the systems we are talking about...but I have said this over and over.

There is no diss here of the Chinese...it is a very complex and difficult thing they are trying to develop.

My only real problem is with the notion that because they have talked about it so much, and fired rockets against static targets in the desert that this means they are ready to defeat a US Navy Carrier Strike Group far out to sea, is pure fan-boy postulation that is ignoring reality.

I also recognize that the PRC will take advantage of this situation and (and I cannot blame them for trying to do so because it is a cheap way of negating a strong advantage a potential opponent has) and try and use all of this information to also create a fait accomplai for a system that is no where near ready yet, and creat an impression that it is ready to go and a serious threat simply because some have been deployed...I believe to produce precisely such a result and concern in the minds of their opponetns.

That kind of thing happens all the time.

The live static test is still a valid test . We all see the photo of the hit which is right in the middle of the mockup rotating concrete Carrier. This in itself prove the Missile have a terminal guidance . Because there is now way they can achieve that kind of accuracy based on INS.

There must be some kind of terminal guidance whether it is GPS or on board radar It have to be terminal guidance. The best that INS can achieved is between 50 to 100 m accuracy To imprecise to hit the Carrier right in the middle of the width of mockup carrier. That kind of hit will required 5 to 10 m accuracy

So if they can have terminal guidance . By extension it should not be too difficult to add on board radar or GPS guidance to hunt for CBG that move no more than 2.25 mile, How they do it ? . No body know it The Chinese keep mum on this subject as they should!
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Nuclear and conventional submarines with modern torpedoes, mines and anti-shipping missiles are making things difficult for surface ships. However, if you expect to project naval power over seas and/or invade another nation, surface ships and carriers are still required. The carrier is not dead; it is in the process of being reinvented.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
The Navy could acquire and operate dozens of America-class vessels for the price of the 10 current carriers. This is the key advantage of having smaller ships. There are many theories of naval warfare; one is that it’s better to deploy large numbers of smaller ships than small numbers of bigger ships.

The idea is that a more numerous and spread out distributed fleet is harder to disable with weapons such as the DF-21D. By this way of thinking, the super-carriers represent single points of failure, whereas a larger fleet of smaller carriers means redundancy and resilience amid combat losses.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Um, exactly how can you effect a 5.17 degree shift with a warhead of two tons? Given that the warhead is moving at Mach 10, you're going to need a very powerful maneuvering jet rocket to move it around in the lower atmosphere at an altitude of 10.2 km.

And if you armed the DF-21D with MIRVs (assuming you can shrink the guidance package that far down), it'll do less damage to the carrier (the Nimitzes are very, very resilient).

That doesn't really matter. This calculation is sound as long as it's within the magnitude, because it is a simplified scenario.

Whereas the carrier isn't going to be able to move faster all of a sudden, there are a number of techniques that the AShBM can use to improve it's probability of success.

1- Multiple missiles aimed at distinct sub-regions of the search area will correspondingly reduce the necessary angle of adjustment. Halving the search radius means halving the adjustment angle.

2- As mentioned, you don't need to sink the carrier, just disable the landing deck or kill the crew. Bomblets and shrapnels can achieve this objective without needing direct hits. MIRVs would be marvelously suitable to this task.

3- Multiple AShBMs all armed with MIRVs can practically saturate the area, disabling not only the carrier, but potentially all the rest of the CVBG.

4- Combine AShBM attacks with submarines to completely overwhelm the CVBG.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
I notice some posts talk about how much damage one AShBM can do to a carrier or how accurate one has to be to make a hit.
The way to go about it is to look at how many AShBM PLA can have for the similar amount of resources USN uses to build & maintain a carrier group.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Navy could acquire and operate dozens of America-class vessels for the price of the 10 current carriers. This is the key advantage of having smaller ships. There are many theories of naval warfare; one is that it’s better to deploy large numbers of smaller ships than small numbers of bigger ships.

The idea is that a more numerous and spread out distributed fleet is harder to disable with weapons such as the DF-21D. By this way of thinking, the super-carriers represent single points of failure, whereas a larger fleet of smaller carriers means redundancy and resilience amid combat losses.
It depends on what you are trying to accomplish and who your opposition is both on land and at sea.

The ability to have high sortie rates, maintinaing significant projectable power on site for long periods against highly contested or defended air space, either over land or sea, has been carefully studied, researched and gamed out in all types of scenarios.

The American supercarriers are optimized to be able to maintain a very high rate of sorties against highly defended targets at long range...and then maintain that pressure for long periods of time. Smaller carriers cannot do this. Their aircraft do not have the range, their stores are much more limited, and their ability to launch and recover aircraft...large numbers of aircraft...even if you have 2 or 3 America's to one Ford...simply do not match up to the requirements the US has established for itself in these areas.

...and those 2-3 America class in those highly conytested battle spaces are actually more likely to suffer damage than a Ford or Nimitz.

Now, the America class can operate in a sea control environement where they are not expected to engage in long term, highly contested combat and so relieve the large carriers of that duty on occassion. And that is a good thing.

But, if the America class is expected to go up, even in the sea control role, against a large, credible task force of agreesors who themselves have STOBAR carrier aviation at their disposal, they will want to have a Nimitz or Ford in attendance. If it controlling the sea against SAGs, or forming up for large scale ASW operations, or even potentially fighting other STOVL carriers, they will do just fine.

But do not make the mistake of thinking that in this area that more smaller ships is better. It is only better if that is all you can afford, meaning it is better than not having any carrier aviation on hand. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with them (what your requirements are)...and then, of course, what you can afford.

I would take a Ford Carrier Strike group against a strike group consisting of 4 Cavours, or Juan Carlos's, or Canberras, or 22DDHs, or Dokdos or any combination of them. Same holds true for the STOBAt carriers. I would take a single Ford or Nimitz against both UK carriers or any group consisting of two other STOBAR carriers like the Lianoing, or Kuznetsov, or Vikramaditya, or Vikrant...any day of the week and twice on Sundays. The advatage in the Ford and Nimitz ability to detect and then reach and strike those carirers and stirke them heavily at range is just so far weighted towards the Ford and Nimitz that it would almost be suicidal to take such a force against them.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Bottom line is than an America class will not be able to do what a Nimitz or Ford class can do. Not even 3 LHA-6 class. They do not carry enough munitions for extended strike ops.

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On July 20, 1997, as part of JTFEX 97-2, USS Nimitz with Commander, Carrier Group Seven (CCG-7) and Carrier Airwing Nine embarked began a high intensity strike campaign. When they completed flight operations four days later, they had generated 771 strike sorties and had put 1,336 bombs on target.

The Surge, as it has come to be known, was unprecedented. It demonstrated the entire process required to put bombs on target in a littoral warfare scenario; it incorporated all facets of strike warfare – from weapons buildup in the magazines to bombs on target. In the post-Vietnam era, no other carrier and embarked airwing have ever generated as much firepower in ninety-eight hours.

The Center for Naval Analysis monitored JTFEX 97-2 and carefully studied the scenario described above, which comes from the introduction of this CNA paper USS Nimitz and Carrier Air Wing Nine Surge Demonstration dated April 1998. “Surge 97″, as it was called, was preceded by six days of an intense, event-driven scenario in which the entire Nimitz battle group conducted offensive and defensive operations. During these six days USS Nimitz and CVW-9 generated about 700 fixed-wing sorties.

Following that six-day period, operations paused for 16 hours, and USS Nimitz and CVW-9 made several preparations for “The Surge” including personnel augmentation, planning augmentation, and replenishment to insure the carrier was fully prepared for the exercise. The resulting average of 192 sorties was touted by the Navy as the benchmark for carrier operations. At the time, this was very important, because naval aviation had taken a hit following the 1991 Gulf War with critics citing low aircraft carrier sortie rates as a reason to reduce the number of aircraft carriers.

While there were obviously agendas at play for the exercise, the lessons learned from that exercise have clearly been demonstrated in Kosovo, Operation Enduring Freedom, and Operation Iraqi Freedom in which, during these operations naval aviation has certainly redeemed itself of the skepticism that may have lingered from the Gulf War. In fact, it was “Surge 97″ that highlighted the remarkable reliability of the F-18 Hornet, a significant metric that highlights the high durability and high sustainability of the aircraft. However, in order for the USS Nimitz to achieve the daily 197 sortie rate sustained for 5 straight days of 24/7 flight operations, almost all sorties were conducted a range less than 200 nautical miles, with a large number conducted under 100nms. As real world operations have since demonstrated, that is not realistic. Regardless, sortie rates under strict conditions remain very useful for comparison purposes.

For “Surge 97″ USS Nimitz had 14 F-14As, 36 F/A-18Cs, 4 EA-6Bs, 8 S-3Bs, 2 ES-3As, and 4 E-2Cs, but of those aircraft only 9 F-14As, 32 F/A-18Cs, 4 EA-6Bs, 5 S-3Bs, 0 ES-3As, and 4 E-2Cs were mission capable on the first day. I think it is important to note that in real world operations, in this case an aircraft carrier that had been engaged in six days of intense operations, an aircraft carrier could have 20% of her CVW unavailable for operations. I think it is also noteworthy that the older aircraft, F-14s and S-3s, suffered the higher downtime rates.

Aircraft carrier sortie rates have varied since 1997. In 2001 the Navy claimed that Nimitz class carriers can support 207 sorties per day, and in 2004 the Navy claimed Nimitz class carriers could launch 230 total surge sorties per 24-hour flying day for four days. These sortie rates are limited to 200 nautical miles, require some preparation, and cannot be sustained beyond only a few days. Current doctrine and planning operates 2 CVNs together, each carrier supporting 120 sorties per 12 hour flight day, combining for 240 sorties over 24 hour days for extended periods of time.

Why is this important? Because sortie generation is one of, if not the most important metric for naval aviation capabilities, and seems to be one of the first aspects of carrier aviation ignored by critics of big deck nuclear aircraft carriers. For example, take the idea of a CVL, a 30,000 ton light carrier alternative supporting 20 F-35Bs. Let us be super optimistic, and suggest the F-35B is as reliable as the F/A-18C from a maintenance perspective (maybe a very patient aviator can explain to the peanut gallery why this is a super optimistic suggestion). In Surge 97, the F/A-18C achieved the eye popping sortie rate of 4.5 sorties per day, but N88 planning factors for the F/A-18C is 2.0 sorties per day. For the purposes of this exercise, let us assume the F-35B can support 2.0 sorties per day on a CVL.

If we assume 20% of the aircraft are not mission capable, and we should because that is how Murphy’s Law works on an aircraft carrier, we now have a CVL supporting 16 F-35Bs capable of conducting 32 sorties per day at a 2.0 sortie rate, and doing so without the services of carrier based E-2D or EA-18G. If a Nimitz class can support 120 sorties per day, we would need 4 CVLs to match the number of sorties a single CVN can support, and a CVN comes with E-2Ds and EA-18Gs built in. The Ford class, which is not only less expensive to operate than a Nimitz, but is specifically designed to support higher sortie generation rates, is probably going to average $8.5 billion over its lifetime (I am guessing, but using CBO numbers to guess). That means the Navy would have to build 30,000 ton CVLs at a cost under $2.2 billion each, which would be at a cost less than the 9,800 ton DDG-51 destroyer in the FY2010 budget, in order to be less expensive and equally capable in sortie generation as a Ford class.

I hate to break it to the CVL / Small Carrier crowd, but it is 100% MYTH and FUD when it is claimed that big deck nuclear aircraft carriers are somehow inferior to alternatives, including on the cost metric. They are in fact, superior in every costing, capacity, and capability metric one can find. The only consideration where CVLs have a good argument is in terms of risk, because CVNs put a lot of eggs in one basket. It all comes down to the level of risk that is acceptable vs the level of cost, capacity, and capability desired for your naval force. I’ll take the big deck, at least 10 if possible, with its associated conventional launch capability and with the E-2D and EA-18G, I’ll whip any 4 VSTOL CVLs every single day of the century.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
That doesn't really matter. This calculation is sound as long as it's within the magnitude, because it is a simplified scenario.

Whereas the carrier isn't going to be able to move faster all of a sudden, there are a number of techniques that the AShBM can use to improve it's probability of success.

1- Multiple missiles aimed at distinct sub-regions of the search area will correspondingly reduce the necessary angle of adjustment. Halving the search radius means halving the adjustment angle.

2- As mentioned, you don't need to sink the carrier, just disable the landing deck or kill the crew. Bomblets and shrapnels can achieve this objective without needing direct hits. MIRVs would be marvelously suitable to this task.

3- Multiple AShBMs all armed with MIRVs can practically saturate the area, disabling not only the carrier, but potentially all the rest of the CVBG.

4- Combine AShBM attacks with submarines to completely overwhelm the CVBG.

The reason why the terminal phase "maneuver rocket motor" is critical is because you only have three seconds to effect those corrections, and you need a very powerful rocket motor to move something going at Mach 10 in such a short timeframe (and this is assuming the warhead is on a flight path perpendicular to the surface. Most likely, it'll be flying at an angle, and that requires even more energy to "catch up" with the carrier if it suddenly turns around the opposite direction, because you then need more energy to counter gravity as you "boost" the trajectory of said warhead).

The problem with maneuvering MIRVs is that you have to make those rocket motors smaller. But the MIRV is still likely to go at Mach 10, which is a problem, because generally rocket motors are less energetic when smaller, pound for pound (I could be wrong though).
 

solarz

Brigadier
The reason why the terminal phase "maneuver rocket motor" is critical is because you only have three seconds to effect those corrections, and you need a very powerful rocket motor to move something going at Mach 10 in such a short timeframe (and this is assuming the warhead is on a flight path perpendicular to the surface. Most likely, it'll be flying at an angle, and that requires even more energy to "catch up" with the carrier if it suddenly turns around the opposite direction, because you then need more energy to counter gravity as you "boost" the trajectory of said warhead).

The problem with maneuvering MIRVs is that you have to make those rocket motors smaller. But the MIRV is still likely to go at Mach 10, which is a problem, because generally rocket motors are less energetic when smaller, pound for pound (I could be wrong though).

F = ma.

The smaller the mass, the less force you need to move (accelerate) it. With multiple reentry vehicles, you can set up a pattern that covers all the possible evasive maneuvers the carrier can attempt.

A previous poster touched on a good point. The real question is, how many AShBMs can China afford to use against one US CVBG, and still come out ahead resource-wise. I suspect that number is pretty high.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
F = ma.

The smaller the mass, the less force you need to move (accelerate) it. With multiple reentry vehicles, you can set up a pattern that covers all the possible evasive maneuvers the carrier can attempt.

A previous poster touched on a good point. The real question is, how many AShBMs can China afford to use against one US CVBG, and still come out ahead resource-wise. I suspect that number is pretty high.

My point is about smaller rockets being less efficient on a pound by pound basis. Will try to find that source which mentioned it (granted, it might have been for liquid rockets).
 
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