Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Who am I talking to 15 year old kids . You don't have just 1 satellite genius You have many satellites and as it fly pass by their target they will inform the next satellite to keep track of the target.

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So how do you handle the lag between satellites passing by? Remember these satellites are not like the cars of a passing train. There is space and time between each satellite

Further each satellite may have been informed of what the previous satellite saw but it will have to use its own onboard sensors to re-detect the targets for themselves

Finally you yourself have pointed out the limitations of the satellite network itself: The datalink between satellites and their ground stations. Jamming those datalinks messes things up for any carefully designed satellite surveillance system

All is possible because you have relay satellite that shuttle information back and forth to different satellite. command center. Your rorsat doesn't have that capability

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Jamming your datalinks between relay satellites shuts your whole system down. Your ocean surveillance system falls into chaos. Simple

The tattle tale will be blown away before it ever reached the perimeter of CAP radius of modern AWAAC genius.

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The tattletale was for the Russians not the carrier. Don't get it crossed up

In spite of what you think the DF-21D is not a new concept. As I explained earlier, the father of the ASBM / DF-21D was the Russian SS-NX-13. And it might do good to review that program and the problems it faced

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I am certain that Chinese engineer aware of jamming and built provision for that by decentralizing control and built redundancy and Counter counter measure. Better still why jam just shoot down the relay satellite But 2 can play the same game now who has more satellite to loose

Rorsat is so unreliable sometime they have 8 hr or 1 day gap that is why they need tattle tale but tattle can be eliminated before it can even get close to US carrier . rorsat never work The technology at that time doesn't allow it plus Russia is weak in electronic

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

NikeX said:

So how do you handle the lag between satellites passing by? Remember these satellites are not like the cars of a passing train. There is space and time between each satellite

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If one satellite can pick up a target and moving in a specific direction, the next satellite can be cued to search a set volume of water in all directions from where the target was last seen, using known speeds that the target can move at.

Further each satellite may have been informed of what the previous satellite saw but it will have to use its own onboard sensors to re-detect the targets for themselves

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So are these weaknesses of satellite based sea surveillance? It's not preventing the system from working, I'm not sure why you bring it up.
In all of these pages and pages of debate I still cannot see why a space based sea surveillance system composed of multiple satellites cannot track, temporarily lose, and reacquire a moving target in a set area of water, given you have enough satellites. How reliably you can track them is another question, but again that depends how many satellites you have to keep a near constant surveillance over the area and whether other sea based or air based assets will assist.

In post 1106 part of the article said "All designs must be traceable to an operational 20 m system providing 24/7 visible NIIRS 3.5+ coverage over denied areas with at least a 1 Hz update rate"

24/7... as in constant? As in... this can be used for sea surveillance? Why not just leave these surveillance sats in geostatinary orbit over the westpac? Or if they're too big to leave in that orbit, china has demonstrated its prowess in mini sats.

Jamming your datalinks between relay satellites shuts your whole system down. Your ocean surveillance system falls into chaos. Simple

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Sure sounds simple yeah? But it swings the other way as well -- jam datalinks between satellites and CVBG and they'll get no warning before AShBMs are right on top of them. Jam GPS, jam Satcom, blind eo satellites.
Simple.

The tattletale was for the Russians not the carrier. Don't get it crossed up

In spite of what you think the DF-21D is not a new concept. As I explained earlier, the father of the ASBM / DF-21D was the Russian SS-NX-13. And it might do good to review that program and the problems it faced

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Similar missions for different eras, bringing up that old thing isn't helping your argument.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:

I am certain that Chinese engineer aware of jamming and built provision for that by decentralizing control and built redundancy and Counter counter measure. Better still why jam just shoot down the relay satellite But 2 can play the same game now who has more satellite to loose

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Shooting down the satellites of another nation is an overt act of war. Jamming datalinks represents a 'soft kill'. The mission can be achieved with minimal damage.

The tattle tail sailed with the carrier battle group 24 / 7. it was there for real-time tracking. The tattle-tail was usually a Russian destroyer. When you saw the tattle-tail steaming away at high speed you knew that a missile strike on the carrier was on the way.

Being aware of jamming and being able to effectively counter the jamming are two different things entirely.

However you must admit that the datalinks between satellites are the most vulnerable part of the ocean surveillance network.

The Chinese are attempting to address these vulnerabilities with their concept of Informationization

It is an ambitious project

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

So are these weaknesses of satellite based sea surveillance? It's not preventing the system from working, I'm not sure why you bring it up.

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I bring these weaknesses up because it should be understood that just having satellites in a formation for ocean surveillance is not enough. There are enough weak points like datalinks between satellites and other vulnerabilities that make the ocean surveillance network not fully reliable. If you stake your whole ocean defense on these satellites you are going to be sorry.

In all of these pages and pages of debate I still cannot see why a space based sea surveillance system composed of multiple satellites cannot track, temporarily lose, and reacquire a moving target in a set area of water, given you have enough satellites. How reliably you can track them is another question, but again that depends how many satellites you have to keep a near constant surveillance over the area and whether other sea based or air based assets will assist.

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You just touched on the key and that is having air based and sea based assets integrated into a seamless network.

That is a tall order to accomplish and China has started down the path but will face many challenges ahead to pull this off. The Chinese concept of Informationization is a step in the right direction

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Why not just leave these surveillance sats in geostatinary orbit over the westpac? Or if they're too big to leave in that orbit, china has demonstrated its prowess in mini sats.

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Mini sats are weak and under powered. ELINT duties are the best use for mini-sats

Radar equipped SAR satellites are good for looking at wide portions of the ocean but must be in low orbits to be effective.....

Because a return signal from a target illuminated by a radar transmitter diminishes as the inverse of the fourth power of the distance, for the surveillance radar to work effectively, RORSATs (Ocean surveillance satellites have to be placed in low earth orbit.

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Which brings up another problem which has been discussed before in relation to the Chinese Yaogan series of satellites:

...... they use large solar panels for power, which cause the satellite orbit to rapidly decay due to drag through the upper atmosphere. Further, the satellite are useless in the shadow of earth.

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These are limitations caused by physics and have nothing to do with my opinions. How the Chinese handle these problems should prove interesting. Do you have any ideas on how to handle these problems?

The Russian solution was using nuclear generators.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Sure sounds simple yeah? But it swings the other way as well -- jam datalinks between satellites and CVBG and they'll get no warning before AShBMs are right on top of them. Jam GPS, jam Satcom, blind eo satellites.

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maybe. But remember the carrier has the E2 and newer systems like this (link below) which are capable of detecting missile launches at long range. Even in a dense electronic warfare situation the carrier will still be able to fight

This video and images are remarkable. If this is what F-35 can do then the money is being well spent

F-35 JSF infrared sensor tracks rocket launch - YouTube



F-35 Detects Missile Launch 1200kms Away — Military Forum ...

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Mpleio just posted Chinese AIS that will locate any civilian or military warship Off course US Navy can always disguise any civilian ship as warship using bogus transponder. But still they have civilian ship database to work with and using it as cross reference for suspicious warship or Aircraft Carrier. that way they can narrow down the search. Xinhui has a blog about it a year or so ago. Interesting




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Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Simple question, have you considered an evolution of the "aircraft" carrier?

The Russians did integrate a small fixed wing protection squadron and rotary wings that can operate very quickly from a carrier as their ammunition storage.
Add to this missiles, rockets and cruise missiles operated from the Nimitz class and the carrier has an arsenal ship capability. Again, the Soviets had many revolutionary military concepts and pushed for carrier-killing missiles like the Chinese. Why? Because they had a problem countering "aircraft" carriers.
Now comes the big new thing, UAV, what can they do? Longtime survey and strike. That's a good thing from a carrier perspective because it does away with munition waste and allows aircrafts to function in a known-target bomber role, as fighters for platform group defense, including assets on and over enemy territory.
One last capability of carriers is - to carry, they carry supplies for the whole carrier group.

In essence, the carrier is evolving and the aircraft carrier of old will be obsolete, but the carrier without a suffix is still a highly capable platform for power projection and likely will be in the future.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I can't figure out that CV locater.. It's in Chinese. Is there an English version besides google?