Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I can't figure out that CV locater.. It's in Chinese. Is there an English version besides google?

Rough works -

Call sign: NIQM
MMSI: 374763000
IMO: 65
Vessel Type: In military operation
Sailing Status: Sailing [I guess it vs "anchored"?] - (Main engine engaged)
Vessel Length: -
Vessel Width: -
Sea gauge: 11.9m
Latitude: 36-57.438N
Longitude: 76-19.801W
Bow: -
Tailing:(I guess) 85.3 degree
Speed: 0
Destination (damn, that's magic isn't it?): NORVA
ETA: -
Last Update: 2011-12-17 00:02:19
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Emperor just posted this article from wsjonline
My comment is using drone have their own risk. The recent iranian capture of drone should remind everyone of the danger relying too much on the drone.

They can be jammed and one malfunction drone will revealed the data link secret Not a good idea .Plus they are slow and can't carry too much of a load

China Takes Aim at U.S. Naval Might .
By JULIAN E. BARNES in Washington, NATHAN HODGE in Newport News, Va., and JEREMY PAGE in Beijing


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The USS Gerald R. Ford was supposed to help secure another half century of American naval supremacy. The hulking aircraft carrier taking shape in a dry dock in Newport News, Va., is designed to carry a crew of 4,660 and a formidable arsenal of aircraft and weapons.

But an unforeseen problem cropped up between blueprint and expected delivery in 2015: China is building a new class of ballistic missiles designed to arc through the stratosphere and explode onto the deck of a U.S. carrier, killing sailors and crippling its flight deck.

Since 1945, the U.S. has ruled the waters of the western Pacific, thanks in large part to a fleet of 97,000-ton carriers—each one "4.5 acres of mobile, sovereign U.S. territory," as the Navy puts it. For nearly all of those years, China had little choice but to watch American vessels ply the waters off its coast with impunity.

Now China is engaged in a major military buildup. Part of its plan is to force U.S. carriers to stay farther away from its shores, Chinese military analysts say. So the U.S. is adjusting its own game plan. Without either nation saying so, both are quietly engaged in a tit-for-tat military-technology race. At stake is the balance of power in a corner of the seas that its growing rapidly in importance.

Pentagon officials are reluctant to talk publicly about potential conflict with China. Unlike the Soviet Union during the Cold War, Beijing isn't an explicit enemy. During a visit to China last month, Michele Flournoy, the U.S. undersecretary of defense for policy, told a top general in the People's Liberation Army that "the U.S. does not seek to contain China," and that "we do not view China as an adversary," she recalled in a later briefing.

Nevertheless, U.S. military officials often talk about preparing for a conflict in the Pacific—without mentioning who they might be fighting. The situation resembles a Harry Potter novel in which the characters refuse to utter the name of their adversary, says Andrew Krepinevich, president of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a think tank with close ties to the Pentagon. "You can't say China's a threat," he says. "You can't say China's a competitor."

China's state media has said its new missile, called the DF-21D, was built to strike a moving ship up to about 1,700 miles away. U.S. defense analysts say the missile is designed to come in at an angle too high for U.S. defenses against sea-skimming cruise missiles and too low for defenses against other ballistic missiles.

Even if U.S. systems were able to shoot down one or two, some experts say, China could overwhelm the defenses by targeting a carrier with several missiles at the same time.

As such, the new missile—China says it isn't currently deployed—could push U.S. carriers farther from Chinese shores, making it more difficult for American fighter jets to penetrate its airspace or to establish air superiority in a conflict near China's borders.


In response, the Navy is developing pilotless, long-range drone aircraft that could take off from aircraft carriers far out at sea and remain aloft longer than a human pilot could do safely. In addition, the Air Force wants a fleet of pilotless bombers capable of cruising over vast stretches of the Pacific.

The gamesmanship extends into cyberspace. U.S. officials worry that, in the event of a conflict, China would try to attack the satellite networks that control drones, as well as military networks within the U.S. The outcome of any conflict, they believe, could turn in part on who can jam the other's electronics or hack their computer networks more quickly and effectively.

Throughout history, control of the seas has been a prerequisite for any country that wants to be considered a world power. China's military buildup has included a significant naval expansion. China now has 29 submarines armed with antiship cruise missiles, compared with just eight in 2002, according to Rand Corp., another think tank with ties to the military. In August, China conducted a sea trial of its first aircraft carrier—a vessel that isn't yet fully operational.

At one time, military planners saw Taiwan as the main point of potential friction between China and the U.S. Today, there are more possible flash points. Tensions have grown between Japan and China over islands each nation claims in the East China Sea. Large quantities of oil and gas are believed to lie under the South China Sea, and China, Vietnam, the Philippines and other nations have been asserting conflicting territorial claims on it. Last year, Vietnam claimed China had harassed one of its research vessels, and China demanded that Vietnam halt oil-exploration activities in disputed waters.

A few years ago, the U.S. military might have responded to any flare-up by sending one or more of its 11 aircraft carriers to calm allies and deter Beijing. Now, the People's Liberation Army, in additional to the missiles it has under development, has submarines capable of attacking the most visible instrument of U.S. military power.

"This is a rapidly emerging development," says Eric Heginbotham, who specializes in East Asian security at Rand. "As late as 1995 or 2000, the threat to carriers was really minimal. Now, it is fairly significant. There is a whole complex of new threats emerging."

Beijing's interest in developing anticarrier missiles is believed to date to the Taiwan Strait crisis of 1996. The Chinese government, hoping to dissuade voters in Taiwan from re-electing a president considered pro-independence, conducted a series of missile tests, firing weapons into the waters off the island. President Bill Clinton sent two carrier battle groups, signaling that Washington was ready to defend Taiwan—a strategic setback for China.

The Chinese military embarked on a military modernization effort designed to blunt U.S. power in the Pacific by developing what U.S. military strategists dubbed "anti-access, area denial" technologies.

"Warfare is about anti-access," said Adm. Gary Roughead, the recently retired U.S. chief of naval operations, last year. "You could go back and look at the Pacific campaigns in World War II, [when] the Japanese were trying to deny us access into the western Pacific."

In 2004, Chinese President Hu Jintao unveiled a new military doctrine calling for the armed forces to undertake "new historic missions" to safeguard China's "national interests." Chinese military officers and experts said those interests included securing international shipping lanes and access to foreign oil and safeguarding Chinese citizens working overseas.

At first, China's buildup was slow. Then some headline-grabbing advances set off alarms in Washington. In a 2007 test, China shot down one of its older weather satellites, demonstrating its ability to potentially destroy U.S. military satellites that enable warships and aircraft to communicate and to target bases on the Chinese mainland.

The Pentagon responded with a largely classified effort to protect U.S. satellites from weapons such as missiles or lasers. A year after China's antisatellite test, the U.S. demonstrated its own capabilities by blowing up a dead spy satellite with a modified ballistic-missile interceptor.

Last year, the arms race accelerated. In January, just hours before then U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates sat down with Chinese President Hu to mend frayed relations, China conducted the first test flight of a new, radar-evading fighter jet. The plane, called the J-20, might allow China to launch air attacks much farther afield—possibly as far as U.S. military bases in Japan and Guam.

The aircraft carrier China launched in August was built from a hull bought from Ukraine. The Pentagon expects China to begin working on its own version, which could become operational after 2015—not long after the USS Gerald R. Ford enters service.

American military planners are even more worried about the modernization of China's submarine fleet. The newer vessels can stay submerged longer and operate more quietly than China's earlier versions. In 2006, a Chinese sub appeared in the midst of a group of American ships, undetected until it rose to the surface.

Sizing up China's electronic-warfare capabilities is more difficult. China has invested heavily in cybertechnologies, and U.S. defense officials have said Chinese hackers, potentially working with some state support, have attacked American defense networks. China has repeatedly denied any state involvement.

China's technological advances have been accompanied by a shift in rhetoric by parts of its military. Hawkish Chinese military officers and analysts have long accused the U.S. of trying to contain China within the "first island chain" that includes Japan and the Philippines, both of which have mutual defense treaties with the U.S., and Taiwan, which the U.S. is bound by law to help defend. They now talk about pushing the U.S. back as far as Hawaii and enabling China's navy to operate freely in the western Pacific, the Indian Ocean and beyond.

"The U.S. has four major allies within the first island chain, and is trying to starve the Chinese dragon into a Chinese worm," Maj. Gen. Luo Yuan, one of China's most outspoken military commentators, told a conference in September.

China's beefed up military still is a long way from having the muscle to defeat the U.S. Navy head-to-head. For now, U.S. officials say, the Chinese strategy is to delay the arrival of U.S. military forces long enough to take control of contested islands or waters.

Publicly, Pentagon leaders such as Mr. Gates and Adm. Mike Mullen, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have said the U.S. would like to cultivate closer military-to-military ties with China.

Privately, China has been the focus of planning. In 2008, the U.S. military held a series of war games, called Pacific Vision, which tested its ability to counter a "near-peer competitor" in the Pacific. That phrase is widely understood within the military to be shorthand for China.

"My whole impetus was to look at the whole western Pacific," says retired Air Force Gen. Carrol "Howie" Chandler, who helped conduct the war games. "And it was no secret that the Chinese were making investments to overcome our advantages in the Pacific."

Those games tested the ability of the U.S. to exercise air power in the region, both from land bases and from aircraft carriers. People familiar with the exercises say they informed strategic thinking about potential conflict with China. A formal game plan, called AirSea Battle, now is in the works to develop better ways to fight in the Pacific and to counter China's new weapons, Pentagon officials say.

The Navy is developing new weapons for its aircraft carriers and new aircraft to fly off them. On the new Ford carrier, the catapult that launches jets off the deck will be electromagnetic, not steam-powered, allowing for quicker takeoffs.

The carrier-capable drones under development, which will allow U.S. carriers to be effective when farther offshore, are considered a breakthrough. Rear Adm. William Shannon, who heads the Navy's office for unmanned aircraft and strike weapons, compared the drone's debut flight last year to a pioneering flight by Eugene Ely, who made the first successful landing on a naval vessel in 1911. "I look at this demonstration flight…as ushering us into the second 100 years of naval aviation," he said.

The Air Force wants a longer-range bomber for use over the Pacific. Navy and Air Force fighter jets have relatively short ranges. Without midair refueling, today's carrier planes have an effective range of about 575 miles.

China's subs, fighter planes and guided missiles will likely force carriers to stay farther than that from its coast, U.S. military strategists say.

"The ability to operate from long distances will be fundamental to our future strategy in the Pacific," says Andrew Hoehn, a vice president at Rand. "You have to have a long-range bomber. In terms of Air Force priorities, I cannot think of a larger one."

The U.S. also is considering new land bases to disperse its forces throughout the region. President Barack Obama recently announced the U.S. would use new bases in Australia, including a major port in Darwin. Many of the bases aren't expected to have a permanent American presence, but in the event of a conflict, the U.S. would be able to base aircraft there.

In light of China's military advances and shrinking U.S. defense budgets, some U.S. military officers have begun wondering whether the time has come to rethink the nation's strategic reliance on aircraft carriers like the USS Ford. A successful attack on a carrier could jeopardize the lives of as many as 5,000 sailors—more than all the troops killed in action in Iraq.

"The Gerald R. Ford is just the first of her class," wrote Navy Captain Henry Hendrix and retired Marine Corps Lt. Col. Noel Williams in an article in the naval journal Proceedings last year. "She should also be the last."
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

"The Gerald R. Ford is just the first of her class," wrote Navy Captain Henry Hendrix and retired Marine Corps Lt. Col. Noel Williams in an article in the naval journal Proceedings last year. "She should also be the last."
Every article by Hendrix is about how bad the current large carriers are and that smaller carriers would be much better. Current international trend in naval developments runs counter to his arguments. Neither does he appreciate the size and mission flexibility of America's numerous smaller carriers for operating fixed wing aircrafts and helicopters, the amphibious warfare ships. The large aircraft carriers he critizes are just part of an arsenal of different US carriers. To really evaluate the carrier system you need to take all versions with their capabilities into account.

Here's a compilation of articles on carriers and their vulnerability to game changers (I posted elsewhere):
This is a carrier discussion that points out costs of supersizing carriers, the author tries to point out that increased tonnage is rather cheap in comaprison to creating a ship. I might add that the fuel debate is not relevant if you have nuclear breeder reactors, unlike for commercial crafts.
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It's a reply to this article by a long-time carrier critique, Captain Henry J. Hendrix.
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The debate is quite hot as these two show about future and current vulnerability of the most expensive weapon platform in the US arsenal:
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and the last one considers game changers that might favour Chinese naval development:
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I don't know why you guys get so agitated by this ballistic missile, it's land based, not sea based and rather an improvement of shore based artillery in range and single shot power. It's a serious threat in littoral waters and could help defend the Chinese mainland against naval invasions. Do you feel threatened by such an invasion?
This missile is pretty useless for defending Chinese SLoC, so in case you face a naval enemy, he can cut your SLoC because you spent money on fancy ballistic carrier killing missiles instead of a navy. Afterwards your country bleeds dry due to reduced supplies while the enemy can advance technology and bolster capabilities to finally launch an invasion. That's the reason why the Soviet's developed such missiles as part of ships, not shore batteries. While the discussion is very technical now, I can't avoid thinking that the Second Artillery Corps wants a bit more prominence in the Chinese military by developing an idea they are capable of realizing, but with dubious value to the Chinese military strength.
Futhermore, have you thought about what tanker aircrafts can do? Extend the range over very long distances. It's in essence a race you can't win whenever you upgrade the missile, the tanker aircrafts can become larger, possibly flying boat designs, and the space to look for a carrier increases as well.
So instead of talking about a weapon being a game changer because it can be so very destructive if it ever hits a target, have you any report about Chinese vessels stalking a carrier? No, so how do you want to locate it for your wonderweapon to hit? The Chinese submarine surfacing among a group of American ships is no proof of stalking about because it can have been lying in wait. It's very difficult to sweep such targets because there are a lot of natural underwater phenomena that apeear like possible submarines lying in wait.

I have serious doubts that the age of the carrier design is over, but I would agree that we live in a time of rapid carrier development and change because more participants are entering the field with their own ideas.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Kurt

You are newcomer in this forum . All the question that you raised, has been discussed to the death. I am not going to repeat those debate. You can look it for yourself by going thru all the pages and pages of discussion

China is not vulnerable to embargo or blockade as you think I already answer your question in the other thread Here is my answer

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China is not vulnerable contrary to what western analyst opinion. To begin with the single largest source of energy in China is coal 90% of generating station in China is coal power. China has a lot of coal mine in inner Mongolia. The reason why China import coal mainly from Indonesia is because it is cheaper to load coal using ship to coastal cities than transporting coal form inner province.

China is essentially self sufficient in Food most grain and other staples food. The soybean import is mostly used for animals feed. Ok China will have to ration meat in the event of war But that is hardly a hardship actually even better and healthier food
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Most oil are used only for Transportation. China supplied roughly 50% of oil from domestic sources. But now that the Russian - China, China- Turkmenistan. China -Kazakhstan pipe in operation They can quadruple their oil delivery in a emergency.
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Again there will be ration for gasoline and private car , But they can still used public transit and China has been building subway like gangbusters There are now 50 cities that has built subway or plane to built subway.

China is endowed with mineral wealth. There are plenty of Iron ore, copper and aluminum. In in hinterland provinces that has yet to develop due to lack of transportation. But in emergency those rail line will be built. In fact there are talk of dedicated coal line.

Feverish as they look, in fact China rail line is only 150,000 mile vs 300,000 mile in US

If you want this is excellent link why embargo will be futile check this one out
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Taiwan issue has been postponed not because China is afraid of US But it is more advantageous for China to have Taiwan on its own.
Think of all the technologies and capitals that China is getting from Taiwan.

Taiwan alone invest roughly 150 billion dollars in China . Right now there are more than 1 million Taiwanese living and working in China
In effect Taiwan is the conduit of high tech to China and therefore circumvent the embargo.

China can wait for reunification.What they did not want is official Taiwan separation and that is why they draw the red line in the sand and dare anybody to cross it
 
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paintgun

Senior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

old? new? real? fake? btw, do we have a 2nd arty thread?

UI6WS.jpg

2OJP9.jpg
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Kurt

You are newcomer in this forum . All the question that you raised, has been discussed to the death. I am not going to repeat those debate. You can look it for yourself by going thru all the pages and pages of discussion

China is not vulnerable to embargo or blockade as you think I already answer your question in the other thread Here is my answer

**ZIP**
China can wait for reunification.What they did not want is official Taiwan separation and that is why they draw the red line in the sand and dare anybody to cross it

I don't claim there's an imminent economic profit from blocking Chinese SLoC, rather a short term mutual loss, but Chinese economic and settlement patterns show a clear dependance on oversea connections. Without these connections the Chinese economy does have a problem and this problem is usually not so much in bulk goods, but in essential things hardly anyone knows and which only few people on earth produce or have access to. That's what SLoC is about.
I agree that China is likely to have a good resilence (not immunity) if they lose SLoC access because they have a big country and friendly neighbours in Siberia (very important asset, don't risk it for some territory grab).
But you should also take into a account that wartime demands for resources multiply and a navy operating in combat burns as much or more fuel as the whole economy of the country it defends. That's one of the reasons why nuclear reactors are popular on warships.

China doesn't have much experience nor aged domestic literature on SLoC issues in the open sea. Maybe that leads to your typical continental power bias (although that is sometimes overstressed to discredit modern Chinese naval theorists) . The analyses are quite correct in stating the negative economic repercussions of going to war.
Did a rising oil price deter the US from invading Iraq and threatening Iran?
From a US perspective the role of Chinese exporters for their domestic market could be replaced by other suppliers, although on the short run there would be a severe supply problem. The reliance of US companies on Chinese exports is impressive on paper, but in substance could just as easily move to another convenient place (and does). That doesn't mean China doesn't have her own developed technology and capabilities, not easy to transfer, but does the US want them from China and in China at all costs?


On Taiwan, I agree that China wants the island undamaged, friendly, intact and not seceding. In case Taiwan and China would decide to be nasty, well, they can hurt each other, it wouldn't be a one-sided thing, but such a theoretical asymmetric naval war doesn't concern carriers here and is off topic.

Getting back to the carrier problem, if the US considers China infringing too much on their leadership and profits (!!!), a carrier backed force in the blue water is still a tough challenge for the PLA and would set the preparatory work for harrassing the Chinese economy to a slowdown through SLoC interdiction and US SLoC control of blue water. If the US feel cheeky they may even sail into your littoral and test these new anti-carrier missiles China develops. That's why China has set the goal of developing a blue water navy, because ALL developed economies are dependant on secure SLoC and that's why the wealthy developed countries bandwaggon with the US, the super SLoC controller. Sorry, but you really miss basics of naval warfare goals and theory and that whatever evolution is going on in littoral combat, the rule of SLoC is the core characrteristic of carrier based forces.
Why don't you start with the works of Corbett
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?

Now concerning the recent littoral developments, a lot of SLoC run also in the littoral and many people live and work there. The US is intent on not letting her ability slip to also control these other than blue waters, even unto the beaches and the hinterland of any enemy. That's just saying they want to be the absolute naval dominance wherever and whenever they want to. Part of that game is showing off and highlighting shortcomings of enemy capability to enhance the own status (another reason for building impressive aircraft and commando carriers). However the US littoral combat approach is too expensive to imitate and will contain a kind of small rotary wing extension platforms (kind of very mini-helicopter-"carriers"), with the capability to conduct rapid and wide ranging operations other nations will have a problem to compete with. So other than the large carriers you have a carrying platform operating close to shore, giving the large carriers of old a new capability to interfere in the green waters while staying blue (others are long range missiles and UAV, a kind of returning missile). The point is that the analyses of carriers is rather botched if you don't consider defense of a naval group first with control exercised on SLoC through simple existance and power projection secondary with whatever means are suitable. these means are cannons, aircrafts, rockets, cruise missiles and now UAV and can be done by having motherships and sending the dream of the jeune école into harms way for example.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Taiwan 2011 National Defense Report: DF-21D ASBMs “have been produced and deployed in small numbers in 2010”
Blog Posts

國防部「國防報告書」編纂委員會 [Ministry of Defense, “National Defense Report” Editorial Board], 中華民國壹百年國防報告書 [Republic of China Centennial 2011 National Defense Report] (Taipei: 國防部 [Ministry of Defense], 2011).

p. 60

ROUGH ENGLISH TRANSLATION:

1. Mainland Chinese Military Capability

4. Second Artillery Strike Capability

Under the guidance of [the] “both conventional and nuclear missions” [concept], [the Second Artillery] continues to develop MIRVed intercontinental ballistic missiles, and to strengthen strategic nuclear deterrence, nuclear counterattack, and conventional precision strike ability; [as well as to] fit out and deploy medium-range ballistic missiles capable of attacking ships (the DF-21D missile). These powerful anti-carrier weapons currently under development by the PLA have been produced and deployed in small numbers in 2010, [thereby] increasing the difficulty for the U.S. military to use its forces in the region.

TRADITIONAL CHINESE (ORIGINAL):

一、中共軍事能力

4、二砲打擊能力

在「核常兼備」指導下,持續研製分導式洲際彈道飛彈,強化戰略核威懾、核反擊與常規精準打擊之能力;列裝部署可攻船之中程彈道飛彈(DF-21D型導彈),為共軍研發中打擊航母利器,已於2010年少量生產部署,增加美軍在區域用兵之難度。

SIMPLIFIED CHINESE:

一、中共军事能力

4、二炮打击能力

在「核常兼备」指导下,持续研制分导式洲际弹道飞弹,强化战略核威慑、核反击与常规精准打击之能力;列装部署可攻船之中程弹道飞弹(DF-21D型导弹),为共军研发中打击航母利器,已于2010年少量生产部署,增加美军在区域用兵之难度。
 
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