Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Wouldn't SSNs know the general area of USN carriers as well and therefore have this "axis of attack". If you knew the general area of the launcher why wait for it to show up, why not use other satellite and if possible, uav assets to ID targets and destroy it earlier with cruise missiles instead of complex A2A from uav concepts?

Cruise missiles are slow and could come later. However the main threat are those DF-21D's that are coming your way

And the whole idea of knowing where DF-21D might be is no simple matter to assume, given it's not exactly a ballistic straight line from land to carrier and even if it was, the TEL can be at any point inland few hundred KMs from the chinese coast and still cover a massive portion of westpac.

However the line is straight enough once the missile is launched. Once you start to climb away from your launcher you are committed to your trajectory.


Sure early warning radars and IR sensor assets will pick up the missile but if you're a few hundred kms away (warded by IADS) it won't do you much good. Now tracking the missile will obviously allow midcourse interception (let's get real, boostphase interception is very, very unlikely. simply getting close enough will be a challenge)

The laser armed YAL-747 operates in a similar way to where it stands off and attempts to engage a climbing missile during boost phase. I am proposing that instead of a 747, you have a stealthy drone armed with two long range air-to-air missiles that is covering a sector waiting for missiles to be launched. If you use long range missiles like the AIM-54 Phoenix or Russian K-172 you can stand 100 miles off and make the attempt to intercept the climbing missile. The problem would be of course cueing the UAV to the climbing missile. There are various ways that could be accomplished but it would be a novel way to deal with the ASBM problem

The carrier is somewhere in the Pacific. The launcher might be in Tibet or near Urumqi. Where is your expected line of attack? And how high can you reach with your anti-missile missile carried by the X-47?

How I would handle that is to station the UAVs between the carrier battlegroup and the expected line of attack. With the appropriate long range air-to-air missiles you could be orbiting over Chinese airspace just waiting for DF-21's to pop up over the horizon and then take your shots. Your expected line of attack is between the carrier and any launcher that decides to launch. Other launchers and missiles being launched towards other targets could be ignored because they are not coming towards the carrier. And the UAV knows where the carrier is because it has been pre-programmed to follow a certain flight profile that mirrors the general maneuvers of the carrier battlegroup.

In other words you have these stealthy UAVs guarding a corridor of Chinese airspace orientated towards the carrier. When the mission is completed you recover the UAVs. The problem would be command and control of the UAVs. Difficult perhaps but not impossible

It's called being too late. Is your X-47 going to have complete coverage everywhere? Not likely at all. Like I said before... the Serbs had something like 90% armor in tact at the end of the war. Just like you can believe the US will have a 100% effectiveness in shooting down a missile. I can say the ASBM will have countermeasure to fool any ABM.

As discussed in another post the X-47 doesn't have to cover everywhere. It only needs to cover approaches to the carrier. And the Israelis performed some mission like this, of clearing corridors through a dense air defense system using drones in the The BEKAA Valley Air Battle, June 1982. In the proposal I am making here, stealth would be the deciding factor to where UAVs would be used to operate deep in Chinese airspace and loiter undetected waiting in ambush for ASBM attacks on the carrier battlegroup
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

NikeX, Use the quote icon when quoting other members. It is the fourth icon from the right when making a post.
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bd popeye super moderator
 

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

More i think about ASBM more i am sure it is a deterrence weapon. Let me explain.

One: we have to know that for PLA, deterrence is different from warfighting.Tactically PLA starts and ends thinking politically, not militarily while to US tactical military doctrine is counterforce. The first finish with the ennemy doing your wishes and the second finish when the ennemy is dead.

Two: PLA primary goal is to take taiwan without a single shot (so without US intervention). fighting a war is NOT the way to do it. Yes, you might deny the US's objectives but at the same time, you're so bled that your own objectives are now unachievable.The goal of DF-21D is to make a US president to ask himself if the objective worth risking a hit to save taiwan. PLA hope that the president will not then send a CSG but if US is ready to pay the price that whole batteries of ASBMs will not stop American CVBGs. Don't forget taiwan is expecting those CSG to help them fight china; so if they are sure that those CSG are not coming they will have no choice apart to go to negotiation table.

Three: because DF-21D is a tactical deterrence weapons all PLA need is to make USN believe ASBM is plausible (and they succeed to that: USN admiral confirm the feasability of a ASBM). PLA don't NEED to test it over water (even in the future if PLA test the DF-21D it will be a political test to reinforce its feasability).

fouth: if DF-21 were a weapon of warfighting then PLA would have to prove its viability; they would have need to test it again and again over water against ships in every condition possible to make sure that it is working. You can't just test it inland and say it is working. Ex J-20 is a weapon of warfighting, PLAAF will use it in any war (when it become available) so you can't just do simulation or ground test and say J-20 is working; no way. You have to fly it day, night, in every condition possible. that is a weapons of warfighting. It must be viable.
For warfighting this system has to be viable. For deterrence all the Chinese had to show was that this system was plausible. TWO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS and two that are easily confused as expected by the Chinese for their own purposes


five: So why everybody want to see a test before to believe? because they are analysing DF-21D trough a american eyes;(Remember: US tactical military doctrine is counterforce). When they hear talked about DF-21D automatically they thought it is china primary response to CSG. They missed the point. DF-21D is primary a psychologic weapon; it is mainly a mental gymnastic not physical.


Six: the objective has been achieved without a single shot. Taiwan is moving slowly to the negotiation table.
They have already shape the battlefield according to their favor. They got 2 USN admiral saying DF-21D reach IOC (in a very eluding contest) without an official statement or a single over water test. USN is devoting a sigificant portion of its limited budget to counter it with ABM, UCAV ( from a CVN who will be far away from China near seas) and even with a new doctrine: Air-Sea Battle.
They've got the Americans committed to an action that could never occurred.
Just brilliant.
Can Sun Tzu be any prouder?

Seven: For me, the cheaper and easier options that the PLA is actually working on to counter CVBGs at the warfighting level is A bunch of YUANS/KILO/SONG/SHANG (And future type 095) laying on bottom in ambush positions.

Eight:I am not denying that PLA is doing research about a ASBM. If finally the DF-21D became viable and operational ( after "sub-tests" or multiple test over water) and it can really hit a ship, all much the better.

Remember : The doctrine is deterrence, not warfighting, and I admit it is damned hard to master but i'am learning. it is detailed in the Chinese publication, THE SCIENCE OF MILITARY STRATEGY. Does anybody knows where i can get it?
 

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

More i think about ASBM more i am sure it is a deterrence weapon. Let me explain.

One: we have to know that for PLA, deterrence is different from warfighting.Tactically PLA starts and ends thinking politically, not militarily while to US tactical military doctrine is counterforce. The first finish with the ennemy doing your wishes and the second finish when the ennemy is dead.

Two: PLA primary goal is to take taiwan without a single shot (so without US intervention). fighting a war is NOT the way to do it. Yes, you might deny the US's objectives but at the same time, you're so bled that your own objectives are now unachievable.The goal of DF-21D is to make a US president to ask himself if the objective worth risking a hit to save taiwan. PLA hope that the president will not then send a CSG but if US is ready to pay the price that whole batteries of ASBMs will not stop American CVBGs. Don't forget taiwan is expecting those CSG to help them fight china; so if they are sure that those CSG are not coming they will have no choice apart to go to negotiation table.

Three: because DF-21D is a tactical deterrence weapons all PLA need is to make USN believe ASBM is plausible (and they succeed to that: USN admiral confirm the feasability of a ASBM). PLA don't NEED to test it over water (even in the future if PLA test the DF-21D it will be a political test to reinforce its feasability).

fouth: if DF-21 were a weapon of warfighting then PLA would have to prove its viability; they would have need to test it again and again over water against ships in every condition possible to make sure that it is working. You can't just test it inland and say it is working. Ex J-20 is a weapon of warfighting, PLAAF will use it in any war (when it become available) so you can't just do simulation or ground test and say J-20 is working; no way. You have to fly it day, night, in every condition possible. that is a weapons of warfighting. It must be viable.
For warfighting this system has to be viable. For deterrence all the Chinese had to show was that this system was plausible. TWO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS and two that are easily confused as expected by the Chinese for their own purposes


five: So why everybody want to see a test before to believe? because they are analysing DF-21D trough a american eyes;(Remember: US tactical military doctrine is counterforce). When they hear talked about DF-21D automatically they thought it is china primary response to CSG. They missed the point. DF-21D is primary a psychologic weapon; it is mainly a mental gymnastic not physical.


Six: the objective has been achieved without a single shot. Taiwan is moving slowly to the negotiation table.
They have already shape the battlefield according to their favor. They got 2 USN admiral saying DF-21D reach IOC (in a very eluding contest) without an official statement or a single over water test. USN is devoting a sigificant portion of its limited budget to counter it with ABM, UCAV ( from a CVN who will be far away from China near seas) and even with a new doctrine: Air-Sea Battle.
They've got the Americans committed to an action that could never occurred.
Just brilliant.
Can Sun Tzu be any prouder?

Seven: For me, the cheaper and easier options that the PLA is actually working on to counter CVBGs at the warfighting level is A bunch of YUANS/KILO/SONG/SHANG (And future type 095) laying on bottom in ambush positions.

Eight:I am not denying that PLA is doing research about a ASBM. If finally the DF-21D became viable and operational ( after "sub-tests" or multiple test over water) and it can really hit a ship, all much the better.

Remember : The doctrine is deterrence, not warfighting, and I admit it is damned hard to master but i'am learning. it is detailed in the Chinese publication, THE SCIENCE OF MILITARY STRATEGY. Does anybody knows where i can get it?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

As discussed in another post the X-47 doesn't have to cover everywhere. It only needs to cover approaches to the carrier. And the Israelis performed some mission like this, of clearing corridors through a dense air defense system using drones in the The BEKAA Valley Air Battle, June 1982. In the proposal I am making here, stealth would be the deciding factor to where UAVs would be used to operate deep in Chinese airspace and loiter undetected waiting in ambush for ASBM attacks on the carrier battlegroup

And the Iranians downed a sophisticated stealth UAV. Yeah and one can say it was a malfuction and had nothing to do with anything Iran was doing. And another person can say stealth isn't what it's cracked up to be whether it's a UAV or a fighter. And I'm saying is no one really knows including you. Because if the Iranians did electronically down the UAV, that says a lot how stealthy it wasn't and how easily a UAV can be affected by electronic warfare. It's all called hype.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Cruise missiles are slow and could come later. However the main threat are those DF-21D's that are coming your way

The point is to destroy the TELs if you already know where they are, before they can actually fire their missiles but okay then.

However the line is straight enough once the missile is launched. Once you start to climb away from your launcher you are committed to your trajectory.

The problem is that you have no idea where the launchers are in the first place, they could be just off the coast or they're a few hundred kms well inside the IADS.
satellites and early warning radars could probably pick up the launch, and the uav's own sensors may be able to as well that will makeit easier for any aegis ships between the TEL and the CVBG to try and shoot it down mid course. But the uav shootin off missiles to try and get it in boost phase? yeah, nah.

The laser armed YAL-747 operates in a similar way to where it stands off and attempts to engage a climbing missile during boost phase. I am proposing that instead of a 747, you have a stealthy drone armed with two long range air-to-air missiles that is covering a sector waiting for missiles to be launched. If you use long range missiles like the AIM-54 Phoenix or Russian K-172 you can stand 100 miles off and make the attempt to intercept the climbing missile. The problem would be of course cueing the UAV to the climbing missile. There are various ways that could be accomplished but it would be a novel way to deal with the ASBM problem

A novel... and unnecessary way. I think I've already mentioned some challenges of such an approach already but i'll do so again anyway
-The fact TELs can be virtually stationed anywhere in the chinese mainland
-Your UAVs, even stealthy, will need to venture a good distance through said mainland's IADS...
-...If your UAVs know where to go in the first place because the TELs could be anywhere.
-Then there's the challenge of whether your A2A missile will be able to cross the distance between the boosting missile and the relatively slow flying UAV... assuming they can penetrate the IADS in the first place.
-Need to develop an entiely new, larger UAV to fly from carriers in the first place (larger because of heavier avionics for A2A, missiles, and more importantly fuel because the current X-47B's range is hardly enough for the mission we're talking about).

I think we've deviated from the original point. You said X-47B could be a counter to AShBM. The fact there are no plans for X-47B to be equipped for A2A role makes the point moot. If it's possible, the point is mooter because X-47B's combat radius at the moment is barely enough to cross AShBM range for strike, never mind A2A.

How I would handle that is to station the UAVs between the carrier battlegroup and the expected line of attack. With the appropriate long range air-to-air missiles you could be orbiting over Chinese airspace just waiting for DF-21's to pop up over the horizon and then take your shots. Your expected line of attack is between the carrier and any launcher that decides to launch. Other launchers and missiles being launched towards other targets could be ignored because they are not coming towards the carrier. And the UAV knows where the carrier is because it has been pre-programmed to follow a certain flight profile that mirrors the general maneuvers of the carrier battlegroup.
In other words you have these stealthy UAVs guarding a corridor of Chinese airspace orientated towards the carrier. When the mission is completed you recover the UAVs. The problem would be command and control of the UAVs. Difficult perhaps but not impossible

The same UAVs whose missiles you want to take out a ballistic missile in the boost phase? Completely different kettle of fish, shooting a target from boost and a target already in flight, exoatmospheric. (possibly partially exo, we've heard things about weird mid course maneovers to fool defences or something). You'll need a pretty high flying uav to shoot that down, and you're basically getting to space war by then.

Not sure what your obsession is with stealthy uavs; it's just complicating the defence. All the jobs you're proposing can be done by existing US military assets. This one in particular can be done by leaving aegis ships between the coast and the cvbg.

As discussed in another post the X-47 doesn't have to cover everywhere. It only needs to cover approaches to the carrier. And the Israelis performed some mission like this, of clearing corridors through a dense air defense system using drones in the The BEKAA Valley Air Battle, June 1982. In the proposal I am making here, stealth would be the deciding factor to where UAVs would be used to operate deep in Chinese airspace and loiter undetected waiting in ambush for ASBM attacks on the carrier battlegroup

Approaches to the carrier is any point from the chinese mainland though. A lot of area to patrol with your few hundred km missiles. But let's play ball and say it's any point three hundred km inland from the entire chinese coast instead. Even then you'll be hard pressed to even get within range with your X-47Bs even if you knew which area to look.

I think we've made it clear X-47B isn't a counter to AShBM in it's current state -- which was the original point. Whether there's potentially a future ucav or iteration of the ucas to fulfill your laid out task, and how feasible/cost effective such a weapon is compared to existing platforms is a whole other question.
 
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Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The Chinese ocean surveillance system is dependent upon secure datalinks to ensure that everyone is on the same page. This is a tall order. Especially with an enemy saturating your surveillance network with decoys, false targets and against a background of commercial shipping.

There is nothing to prevent China from converting commercial ships to additional survillence assets and hide them in that same commercial shipping the US would be in. :rolleyes:
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Don't forget that the satellite is moving with great speed so can develop its model of propagation over a large area also with great speed.

Moving at 'great speed' can be a disadvantage since the satellite's radar can only revisit a certain area once each orbit. Then you have the rotation of the earth.
That's why China has multiple assets in space and is launching more. This isn't an impossible hurdle to overcome.

Finally you have the motion of the vessels themselves to account for. Its an immense task and China has its work cut out for itself. Maybe China can get it figured out. But they haven't demonstrated that capability yet. There are many variables they have to master.

China hasn't demonstrated the capability to launch its ICBMs and hits US either, but that doesn't mean the capability doesn't exist. Likewise, a lack of a full range test is not a lack of capability. A test whereby the survillence system tracks a target in East China Sea while a missile launches inland on a mirrored trajectory would still constitute as a test. Demonstration and existance are two different concepts. It is a shaky argument to use the former as a proof for the latter, especially in light of Admiral Willard's statement regarding ASBM.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

That's why China has multiple assets in space and is launching more. This isn't an impossible hurdle to overcome.



China hasn't demonstrated the capability to launch its ICBMs and hits US either, but that doesn't mean the capability doesn't exist. Likewise, a lack of a full range test is not a lack of capability. A test whereby the survillence system tracks a target in East China Sea while a missile launches inland on a mirrored trajectory would still constitute as a test. Demonstration and existance are two different concepts. It is a shaky argument to use the former as a proof for the latter, especially in light of Admiral Willard's statement regarding ASBM.

That's probably the point of the argument to get China to be more "transparent" of its capabilities perhaps.
 
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