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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
IMO Kim should make a deal with Xi so that he can focus on the economy. For example, let China station troops near the S + N.Korea border to serve as tripwire. No need to fear S.Korea response as the US already does the same and it has bases inside S.Korea

Win for N.Korea because it can focus on the economy and double win because the Chinese troops would serve as tripwire in the case someone wants to attack the country.

Win for S.Korea because N.Korea will stop focusing on military and because of the Chinese troops the N.Korea will dramatically drop down the military hardline talk and threats. And this would be the first stop for a peace declaration between S + N.Korea and increase economic interactions.

Lose for the US because it will lose influence in S.Korea as the threat of N.Korea will be reduced so the US wont be needed as much.

Win for China, because of increased trade with N.Korea. Win for reducing US influence in the region. Win for drawing S.Korea near China because China will have a greater influence into N.Korea. Win in the international stage as it can demonstrate it can find peaceful solution to problems, contrary to the military solutions of the US.
And Win again because it can show to the countries in the world that if you have good relations with China, you will be rewarded by China.

So as you can see, there are tremendous benefits to the N.Korea focusing on the economy and letting some Chinse troops inside the country to serve as a tripwire.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
solarz said:
They have to spend that much on the military because they've got an enemy with a huge army right south of their border.

This is why it is imperative for NK to have a nuclear deterrent, because that would free up massive amounts of resources that are currently going towards the conventional military.

NK is also doing much better than what Western media would have you believe. I would say it's currently on the level of early 90s China, so about 30 years behind, which is actually a lot better than many countries in the world.
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It's an obvious death trap to keep spending 25% on the military like they are doing. The more you spend there, the less you have for economic development and scientific modernization. And that means you'll have to spend even more on antiquated military procurement in hopes that numbers will offset a rival that is more advanced but it will never happen because South Korea's economy is growing and it's easily able to afford more and better weapons while North Korea's stagnant and gaunt foundation cannot. The foundation must be built before you can build the military on it. It's perfect for them them say that they just want to economically develop and it gives China every right reason to defend them internationally. If they declare this tomorrow, China can immediately make a case at the UN to remove sanctions so North Korea can normalize into the world. China already defends them militarily but they are wasting that resource spending themselves into a ditch for a defense that they don't need now. If North Korea can throw away its tough talk and nasty words for economic development, they can become richer and more modern and eventually that will translate into a foundation that will allow them to build a military that is lean and mean and sustainable. By that time, if they develop nukes, they will be on a much better footing to simply do it and be accepted as a new nuclear power. Instead, they talk trash all day and worship the Kim family as living deity. That North Korea is doing better than swathes of territories in the world is solely attributed to that they are Asians working hard and that in itself is a powerful force.
 
Temstar

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
voyager1 said:
IMO Kim should make a deal with Xi so that he can focus on the economy. For example, let China station troops near the S + N.Korea border to serve as tripwire. No need to fear S.Korea response as the US already does the same and it has bases inside S.Korea

Win for N.Korea because it can focus on the economy and double win because the Chinese troops would serve as tripwire in the case someone wants to attack the country.

Win for S.Korea because N.Korea will stop focusing on military and because of the Chinese troops the N.Korea will dramatically drop down the military hardline talk and threats. And this would be the first stop for a peace declaration between S + N.Korea and increase economic interactions.

Lose for the US because it will lose influence in S.Korea as the threat of N.Korea will be reduced so the US wont be needed as much.

Win for China, because of increased trade with N.Korea. Win for reducing US influence in the region. Win for drawing S.Korea near China because China will have a greater influence into N.Korea. Win in the international stage as it can demonstrate it can find peaceful solution to problems, contrary to the military solutions of the US.
And Win again because it can show to the countries in the world that if you have good relations with China, you will be rewarded by China.

So as you can see, there are tremendous benefits to the N.Korea focusing on the economy and letting some Chinse troops inside the country to serve as a tripwire.
Click to expand...
North Korea is very sensitive about their sovereignty, as is their right. There's no chance of them accepting foreign troops on their land.

China would not accept Soviet troops in Northern China (although it did take a while to get them all to leave after 1949) even before the Sino-Soviet split, so understandably the feeling is similar with North Korea no matter how good their relationship with China becomes.

Back when North Korea first started testing nuclear weapons US diplomats would tell Chinese diplomats that North Korea becoming nuclear is not a good thing for China either and China should rein them in, to which Chinese diplomats would answer "they are a sovereign nation not a dog".
 
vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
escobar said:
Oh sure, and instead of thinking how to exploit this like US would do, CN gang up with NK ennemy when we all know NK will never give up its nuclears weapons regardless of the sanctions. And now that CN and US relations have deteriorated, CN came back searching for friend. Nice strategy
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Another “I’m smarter than the Chinese leader” megalomaniac
 
windsclouds2030

windsclouds2030

Senior Member
Registered Member
solarz said:
Why would you think 1.4 billion people would all behave the way you expect?

If you go digging for people doing dumb things in China, you will always be able to find something.

It's called selection bias.
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Actually the population of China in 2021 is your stated number plus another 43.37 million people,
which the tailing figure itself is larger the whole population of Canada :)

Indeed it is very challenging for every one to imagine rightly in his mindset, to have the correct mental picture of the population at such gigantic size... with all of its implications, pros and cons.

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V

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Temstar said:
North Korea is very sensitive about their sovereignty, as is their right. There's no chance of them accepting foreign troops on their land.

China would not accept Soviet troops in Northern China (although it did take a while to get them all to leave after 1949) even before the Sino-Soviet split, so understandably the feeling is similar with North Korea no matter how good their relationship with China becomes.

Back when North Korea first started testing nuclear weapons US diplomats would tell Chinese diplomats that North Korea becoming nuclear is not a good thing for China either and China should rein them in, to which Chinese diplomats would answer "they are a sovereign nation not a dog".
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I said make a deal. Obviously N.Korea would get something out for it, thats how deals work after all.

Now what they would get I dont know but I am sure they can find something important to lets some tokens troops in their territory as a guarantee.

IMO if they dont let Chinese troops I find it very difficult that they will reduce their military expenditures and reduce aggressive statements and threats if they are not 100 per cent sure that China has their back.

Maybe there may not be a need for troops but something else which would be enough to ensure N.Korea that China would protect them militarily.

No need for China to be too difficult with N.Korea, as it is in their benefit that N.Korea gets stronger economically and normalize relations with S.Korea.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
siegecrossbow said:
My point is this kind of boycott where people burn or tear stuff up is not something to be proud of.
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I don’t see what the issue is since it’s their stuff that they bought with their own money.

I also see the symbolic and practical value of such actions as concrete demonstration of the will and determination of consumers.

Bosses in western boardrooms and shareholders will take such protests a lot more seriously compared to people only paying lip service while still wearing clothes/shoes from the companies in question. Because firstly, they will rightfully question just how committed people are if all they do is talk. And secondly, for a consumer to be so pissed off as to burn perfectly good products they already bought and paid for means that’s a customer you have lost for life.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
plawolf said:
I don’t see what the issue is since it’s their stuff that they bought with their own money.

I also see the symbolic and practical value of such actions as concrete demonstration of the will and determination of consumers.

Bosses in western boardrooms and shareholders will take such protests a lot more seriously compared to people only paying lip service while still wearing clothes/shoes from the companies in question. Because firstly, they will rightfully question just how committed people are if all they do is talk. And secondly, for a consumer to be so pissed off as to burn perfectly good products they already bought and paid for means that’s a customer you have lost for life.
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And yet an even better way ... really the only way, is to hit their bottom lines. The issue here is that their bottom lines are very closely tied to the bottom lines of various Chinese suppliers. The only symbolic value is building awareness among others on how small western lies can snowball into major consequences (these being relatively trivial stuff but the momentum builds!). There is value in letting others know about it and how the "appropriate" feelings should be. It's what Indians did when they smashed their Chinese products and Koreans and Chinese when they destroyed their own Japanese products in the past as protest or this symbolic gesture.

No denying the value. It's just slightly silly and better ways could be done. This is destroying value after all. Anyway each personal respond and acts differently to the next. Some are more emotional and extreme in their behaviour and reactions than others.

I bet this is relatively limited and the few instances are given attention to create and propel the message/awareness. Picked up by anti-China publication to focus only on the "extreme" behaviour of Chinese people who are overly nationalistic and emotional lol. When it might be 1 in 100,000.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
manqiangrexue said:
It's an obvious death trap to keep spending 25% on the military like they are doing. The more you spend there, the less you have for economic development and scientific modernization. And that means you'll have to spend even more on antiquated military procurement in hopes that numbers will offset a rival that is more advanced but it will never happen because South Korea's economy is growing and it's easily able to afford more and better weapons while North Korea's stagnant and gaunt foundation cannot. The foundation must be built before you can build the military on it. It's perfect for them them say that they just want to economically develop and it gives China every right reason to defend them internationally. If they declare this tomorrow, China can immediately make a case at the UN to remove sanctions so North Korea can normalize into the world. China already defends them militarily but they are wasting that resource spending themselves into a ditch for a defense that they don't need now. If North Korea can throw away its tough talk and nasty words for economic development, they can become richer and more modern and eventually that will translate into a foundation that will allow them to build a military that is lean and mean and sustainable. By that time, if they develop nukes, they will be on a much better footing to simply do it and be accepted as a new nuclear power. Instead, they talk trash all day and worship the Kim family as living deity. That North Korea is doing better than swathes of territories in the world is solely attributed to that they are Asians working hard and that in itself is a powerful force.
Click to expand...

You're basically asking NK to become a vassal state of China, and for various reasons NK is unwilling to do that, and China is not going to ask them to do so either.

As is, what NK does is perfectly rational. China also had to spend massive amounts on the military before acquiring nuclear deterrence. China could also have become a vassal state of the Soviet Union, but for obvious reasons we didn't. So why expect NK to do the same?
 
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