Miscellaneous News

coolgod

Major
Registered Member
I'm not trying to equate anything, I'm just calling out arrogance so you don't have to lecture me on anything. You can be sentimental all you want but the world (particularly the Global South) has little appetite for another arrogant super power, the goodwill China has built up to this point is not guaranteed, so don't take it for granted. If China goes down the path of "the weak should serve the powerful" then I'd rather just keep the so called rules based order. If people believe that China should have this arrogance because it built itself to be powerful then cool, the US and western buddies are justified in trying to contain China because they've built themselves to that position and they should keep on trying to peg China down if you follow the same logic.
You can talk shit about the UN P5 all you want, it doesn't change a damn thing. The last world leader who made a mockery out of the UN P5 also happened to be African. We all know the story of his humiliating death.

If people believe that China should have this arrogance because it built itself to be powerful then cool, the US and western buddies are justified in trying to contain China because they've built themselves to that position and they should keep on trying to peg China down if you follow the same logic. You see how silly that sounds? Don't champion Global South but then act like the monster you despise, it lends credence to the claim that China's rise is nefarious and people will start to see why it has issues with most of its neighbors. We're rooting for China but that arrogance is not necessary.

Of course it's justified, it's in their interest to remain top dog, you don't just give up your seat at the throne without a fight. China is strong because China put in the effort to be strong, not because other countries chooses to be weak. If the global south chooses to be weak, it's not China fault.

End of the day, might is right no matter how much fluff you put on top.
 

MelianPretext

New Member
Registered Member
The discussions earlier on why UNSC expansion has not taken place, even though it has been over 70 years since the creation of the UN, already hits on most of the explanations for why the current P5 still retain their seats and what the principal geopolitical purpose of the UNSC (and the UN in general) is: serving as an established forum for the P5 to engage in diplomacy rather than resort to military means to resolve disputes between one another, particularly in the nuclear age. As such, the UN's core purpose has been this above everything else, and to fulfill it at all costs.

The United Nations exists in the shadow of the League of Nations, which collapsed precisely because Japan (and then the entire Axis) withdrew after the League condemned its invasion of Manchuria. The United Nations structure as it exists today, in spite of all the associated injustices and failures of such a framework, was crafted that way solely to prevent it from the same path that the League went down.

Following WW2, the UNSC had been devised as a victor’s prestige club by Roosevelt for his "Four Policemen" world government vision, that is, to keep the Axis down and to codify a global power hierarchy where the Allies are enshrined on top by international framework. However, the idea of the UN’s fundamental purpose as a place for the major powers to mediate disputes wasn’t fully appreciated until the Korean War, where the so-called “UN Command” coalition under US control catastrophically miscalculated and forced China’s entry into Korea. Through a lack of diplomatic channels to China and having barred even an informal Chinese presence in the UN, China had to convey its ultimate warning through the Indian ambassador. The newborn collective “United Nations,” the nascent international order, subsequently had its baby teeth broken in by the People’s Volunteer Army's counteroffensive after reaching the Yalu. This revealed the price of an international order that ignored the reality on the ground of power conditions and it was only after China’s intervention that the US permitted an unofficial Chinese delegation to the UN.

As such, international law and international diplomacy are, fundamentally, pantomime acts that only endure because the major powers hum along to the tune. In other words, the international legal order under the UN Charter is the allegorical emperor that has no clothes and it can only walk around in confidence because those major powers pretend to see that it is clothed. These are the material conditions that the UN endures upon and the reason why the major Allied powers were given and retain P5 status to this day. It is indeed unjust to the rest of the world how the entire framework serves to assuage these major powers in the same way that the League could have only survived if it appeased the Japanese following their bloody atrocities in illegally invading China. Justice, however, is besides the point.

As for reform and expansion, the real reason why countries like India haven't been admitted into the P5 is because elevating a country into UNSC permanent seat status ensures, through initiation into this club, that the status of that country is enshrined into the international power hierarchy. What does this mean in practical terms? It means that such a country no longer has to appeal to one of the P5 (usually Russia or the US for India) to protect its interests in the UNSC. It means that such a country itself becomes a new unbeholden powerbroker in the UNSC such that its views need to be satisfied to prevent vetos or stonewalling and that non-UNSC countries are able to come to it as an alternative to the P5 to secure their own interests, which obviously then deprives the latter of such leverage. These are significant enough privileges that countries actively campaign with serious effort for merely rotating UNSC seats and the P5 in the past 70 years have expressed no interest in extending such privileges permanently. India, in particular, is said to be explicitly blocked by China, which means the other four (particularly the US and Russia) are free to dangle their “support" for its candidancy like a carrot. The fact that their support to this point only extends as far as it lets them contrast their “generosity" with that of “uncooperative" China for virtue signalling purposes shows that it has been fundamentally insincere.

Additionally, discussions on UNSC expansion nearly always fail to appreciate the views of those many countries who know they don’t have a chance themselves of inclusion through such reform including the neighbors and rivals of would-be inductees like India. India’s inclusion would confirm its hegemonic status in South Asia, a betrayal of Pakistan on China’s part if the latter agreed, and deeply problematic for local neighbors like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and the Maldives, not to mention even SEA, as it would subordinate them and diminish their diplomatic autonomy through Indian threats of veto in conflicts of interest. This is why such countries formed the “Uniting for Consensus” bloc and for them, it’s a case of, as the saying goes, "better the devil you know." Such concerns exist in the case of every single would-be candidate. As such, UNSC expansion is opposed both from the top and from below with only the middle few truly enthusiastic about it. The concluding assessment is that the UNSC was created in the paradigm shift of WW2 and it will take another paradigm shift for reform of the P5 structure, which can sustain itself currently through indefinitely appealing to inertial tradition as the victors of the war, to be seriously considered.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm not trying to equate anything, I'm just calling out arrogance so you don't have to lecture me on anything. You can be sentimental all you want but the world (particularly the Global South) has little appetite for another arrogant super power, the goodwill China has built up to this point is not guaranteed, so don't take it for granted. If China goes down the path of "the weak should serve the powerful" then I'd rather just keep the so called rules based order. If people believe that China should have this arrogance because it built itself to be powerful then cool, the US and western buddies are justified in trying to contain China because they've built themselves to that position and they should keep on trying to peg China down if you follow the same logic. You see how silly that sounds? Don't champion Global South but then act like the monster you despise, it lends credence to the claim that China's rise is nefarious and people will start to see why it has issues with most of its neighbors. We're rooting for China but that arrogance is not necessary.
Rhetoric spews by some do not equate to ACTIONS ACTED UPON BY CHINA. You come across as holier than thou which I FIND DETESTABLE to be frank. I have no time for your lecture dude. I lived in a Global South country and comes from a Global South country and that's the Philippines and China. Last I checked, China has indeed not only been championing the cause of Global south countries not just via empty rhetorical diarrhea as exercised by the MISSIONARIES that has come to colonize and subjugate continental Africa, but through actual INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENTS many of which never even occurred during the colonizers occupation.

I am not going to insult your intelligence that what China has done and is doing with respect towards its investment in Africa is based on truism it isn't, China must feed, develop, and nurture its people first before it must tend to the needs of others as a responsible country must do. But, where is your India in this picture? where and when did India provide the necessary alternative to what China has done and proposed other than bitch and provide not just the origin of "DEBT TRAP DIPLOMACY" that's been used effectively by the west to malign China's actions and intentions with Africa? When and Where has China began to act the very bully you keep on inventing and projecting it will or might do where India and even smaller chihuahua countries like the Philippines have acted against China?

I think you protest too much for a situation when it can't really happen: CHINA ACTING LIKE THE BULLY LIKE THE COLONIALISTS.

I specifically USED AN EXAMPLE THAT IF CHINA WAS A DEMOCRACY then all your fears and loathing would and will have MERIT. But because China is not under such despotic system, then your fear and projection remain null and void. The musings of people like myself and others worse than myself @zhangjim are confined into forums such as this and I can only speak for myself use this outlet to vent out HUMAN FRUSTRATIONS that come out from time to time. I think we Chinese people are entitled to hold multiple opinions and express feelings without being told to check our privileges or whatever nonsense you love to project.
 

Africablack

Junior Member
Registered Member
You can talk shit about the UN P5 all you want, it doesn't change a damn thing. The last world leader who made a mockery out of the UN P5 also happened to be African. We all know his humiliating death.



Of course it's justified, it's in their interest to remain top dog, you don't just give up your seat at the throne without a fight will you. If the global south chooses to be weak, it's not China fault. End of the day, might is right no matter how much fluff you put on top.
It will definitely change eventually, everything does. We don't need arrogant super powers, we need a balanced world. But be honest with your true motives and don't ride the backs of the Global South pretending to champion its cause. That's dishonorable.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
let's just keep things as they are because the US and it's allies are justified in containing China because, let's face it, they are still more powerful than China.
They are. So what?
Did I ever said that US is "unjustly" containing China?

US as a strong country can do whatever it wants. Now if it wants to contain China or develop internally or whatever else, is its own choice with the relevant consequences. Of course a declining hegemon is going to suppress the rising power.

US or not US, China has a clear plan which has been executing for many decades. The US is merely a stumbling block to its end goal.

Your UN talk is you getting hooked on US propaganda ("the US and it's allies" lol) on believing things like equality, fairness and other such bs. You can talk to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya about such exemplary characteristics, and enlighten them about the fairness of the world. I am certain that they will agree with you
 

Africablack

Junior Member
Registered Member
They are. So what?
Did I ever said that US is "unjustly" containing China?

US as a strong country can do whatever it wants. Now if it wants to contain China or develop internally or whatever else, is its own choice with the relevant consequences. Of course a declining hegemon is going to suppress the rising power.

US or not US, China has a clear plan which has been executing for many decades. The US is merely a stumbling block to its end goal.

Your UN talk is you getting hooked on US propaganda ("the US and it's allies" lol) on believing things like equality, fairness and other such bs. You can talk to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya about such exemplary characteristics, and enlighten them about the fairness of the world. I am certain that they will agree with you
Noted. At least you're honest.
 

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm not trying to equate anything, I'm just calling out arrogance so you don't have to lecture me on anything. You can be sentimental all you want but the world (particularly the Global South) has little appetite for another arrogant super power, the goodwill China has built up to this point is not guaranteed, so don't take it for granted. If China goes down the path of "the weak should serve the powerful" then I'd rather just keep the so called rules based order. If people believe that China should have this arrogance because it built itself to be powerful then cool, the US and western buddies are justified in trying to contain China because they've built themselves to that position and they should keep on trying to peg China down if you follow the same logic. You see how silly that sounds? Don't champion Global South but then act like the monster you despise, it lends credence to the claim that China's rise is nefarious and people will start to see why it has issues with most of its neighbors. We're rooting for China but that arrogance is not necessary.
To be fair the global south has basically done NOTHING to get rid of US and European imperialism.
To buy Russian petrol on discount and make a good business out of it hardly count as fight imperialism.

The only countries have done something to fight the western imperialism are the next.

Honorary place would for the extinct Soviet Union. And after it

First and foremost Iran and North Korea.
Second honorably place Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba, Siria and defunct Lybia.
Third Russia (and Belarus) Russia started late but to be fair has bleed more than nobody to fight western imperialism.
Fourth. China, without Chinese technological developments the world would be a hostage of the western technology. Only China made possible to visualise a modern world without the west.
Then you have some African countries that fought against French imperialism but nothing outside there.

The global south in general are just a bunch of talkers, who demand a lot, don’t help in anything and many times end serving the US.
Just look at India, Brazil with Bolsonaro, Argentina, Chile, Arabs countries, Egypt…
 

azn_cyniq

Junior Member
Registered Member
It will definitely change eventually, everything does. We don't need arrogant super powers, we need a balanced world. But be honest with your true motives and don't ride the backs of the Global South pretending to champion its cause. That's dishonorable.
I don't think you have much to worry about. First of all, the opinions of SDF members do not represent the opinions of China's younger generation. Most of us don't even live in China. Secondly, we currently live in a world in which the destiny of the weak is to serve the powerful. I don't like it, but unfortunately, that is the reality of the world we live in. In order for China to survive, it must abide by that rule until it is strong enough to ignore the West.

I am optimistic about China's future for two reasons. Firstly, there hasn't been a single period in human history in which the planet was dominated by a single superpower. The West will not disappear, and it will be there in the future to keep the East in check, just as the East currently keeps the West in check. Secondly, China has learned from the West that violence is far from the most efficient means of interacting with other countries. By invading other countries, the West has created enemies throughout the world who are willing to toss their lives away in the hope of doing as much damage to the West as possible. That's really scary. China does not want people to fly large airliners into its buildings. As such, I believe that China has learned that it is far easier to peacefully trade with other nations so that it can sleep at night, unlike the West. Furthermore, we are most likely a few generations away from becoming a true spacefaring civilization, so there will be more than enough ways to acquire resources without colonizing fellow human beings.
 

Randomuser

Junior Member
Registered Member
To be fair the global south has basically done NOTHING to get rid of US and European imperialism.
To buy Russian petrol on discount and make a good business out of it hardly count as fight imperialism.

The only countries have done something to fight the western imperialism are the next.

Honorary place would for the extinct Soviet Union. And after it

First and foremost Iran and North Korea.
Second honorably place Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba, Siria and defunct Lybia.
Third Russia (and Belarus) Russia started late but to be fair has bleed more than nobody to fight western imperialism.
Fourth. China, without Chinese technological developments the world would be a hostage of the western technology. Only China made possible to visualise a modern world without the west.
Then you have some African countries that fought against French imperialism but nothing outside there.

The global south in general are just a bunch of talkers, who demand a lot, don’t help in anything and many times end serving the US.
Just look at India, Brazil with Bolsonaro, Argentina, Chile, Arabs countries, Egypt…
This global south talk sounds nice but I never really believed in it. The reason is the stakes aren't really that high right now. We aren't near world war three yet. There's no need where you HAVE to pick between the west side and the China/Russia side. If that happens, would the global south be trusted to pick China/Russia side where they don't know if they will win? I doubt it. I mean Argentina was going to join the BRICS and look what happened to them now.

So at the end of the day it really comes down to might is right. Do you pick the western horse of the Chinese/Russian one? You can't sit on the fence, you have to pick one. And since the west is still in a position of power that means you're gonna pick the underdog who has a higher chance of losing and by siding against the west, you will have to sacrifice a lot. Will this global south be still there there if China/Russia is on the losing momentum? I really doubt it.

Arrogance is defined as having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Well it doesn't matter how humble China is then because if it loses, then any slight confidence can be considered arrogance since its a loser.

Really the worst thing in a war ultimately is being a loser. Because it doesn't matter how good your motives were, you're not in a position to write down the history and your enemy who has bled fighting you isn't going to be nice after what you made him go through. Thats why the position of General is frankly taken too lightly by many people. He basically holds not just the lives of millions but their futures too. Thats why I can never understand why some countries choose to pick Generals who got there through connections instead of ability. The stakes are too high for nepotism to determine fate.
 
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Africablack

Junior Member
Registered Member
To be fair the global south has basically done NOTHING to get rid of US and European imperialism.
To buy Russian petrol on discount and make a good business out of it hardly count as fight imperialism.

The only countries have done something to fight the western imperialism are the next.

Honorary place would for the extinct Soviet Union. And after it

First and foremost Iran and North Korea.
Second honorably place Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba, Siria and defunct Lybia.
Third Russia (and Belarus) Russia started late but to be fair has bleed more than nobody to fight western imperialism.
Fourth. China, without Chinese technological developments the world would be a hostage of the western technology. Only China made possible to visualise a modern world without the west.
Then you have some African countries that fought against French imperialism but nothing outside there.

The global south in general are just a bunch of talkers, who demand a lot, don’t help in anything and many times end serving the US.
Just look at India, Brazil with Bolsonaro, Argentina, Chile, Arabs countries, Egypt…
I can only pray that China's leaders are humble.
 
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