Miscellaneous News

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Trade wars can be bad for Europe but its also bad for China as well. Especially now, When China is no longer contract manufacturer but active brand builder.
Trade wars are bad for anyone. Bad for Chine of course. But for Europe, its trade war + energy inflation + deindustrialization + economic depression + social unrest. That's actually fatal.

China is doing contract manufacturing and brand building at the same time. Check your facts. Go to your local store and find out how many Western-branded goods are still made in China.
Chinese brands will be the primary driver of China's future growth. So, Chinese branded Cars, Tvs, Computers, Phones, Apps such as Tiktok and Temu. These Chinese branded products will have much bigger profit if they have access to US, EU and other western allied markets.

But the way the new cold war is going, I feel the west will never allow Chinese branded products to have market share in the west. Just like how they killed Huawei's market access in the west, they will ban all Chinese branded products with the accusation of Spying, hacking and whatever excuse they can find.
Wrong. While the champion brands of China will be among the biggest engines for future growth, they are not the only one. China's economy is much more diverse than that. Nevertheless, the big Chinese brands are making huge inroads in the West today, despite the tariffs and the bad press that they are getting.

Except for a few US poodles in West, the rest are still buying telecom products from Huawei. BYD electric buses are still being procured to run in Western cities till this day. Those 4th of July fireworks Americans like to burn, 90% are made in China. Tiktok is still a big hit, despite all the controversies. Chinese brands are big in the West because Western customers like them, not because they are Chinese. Banning them is essentially doing free marketing services for them. As the Huawei case have demonstrated.

The west has 55 billion in nominal GDP which is more than 50% of world nominal GDP. This is the biggest buying power. So, if Chinese brands are forced to just rely on Chinese market and the global south, then they will survive ofcourse but they will not have all the revenues and profits they could get. This will in turn slow down China's GDP growth rate. Over the long term, having two different tech ecosystem of China and the West is not good for China's future wealth and prosperity.
Where did you learn your economics? Nominal GDP is not what buying power is based on, that's GDP by Purchasing Power Parity (PPP)! Cost of living is much higher in the West than in China. $100 goes much further in China than the West. $100 could be spent on a meal in the West and that transaction is counted in the Nominal GDP. $100 in China could buy a couple of meals, groceries, and transport fees. Those transactions, counted for Nominal GDP is gonna be smaller. But for GDP PPP, its gonna be higher. Inflated price tags distorts the true value of the economy. If you wanna talk about economics, you should have known these things.

The Global South and the Chinese market should never be underestimated. The Global South is still the fastest group of growing economies on Earth. And growing economies need affordable products. The West used to fleece the Global South by selling products that they need/want at extreme margins, and with strings attached. China can provided them with a much more affordable alternative with no hidden conditions, thus it is poised to dominate that massive market. We all know what the Chinese market is like. If its so insignificant, why are Western brands lining up to get into the Chinese market? Why do some even grovel at Chinese consumers for hurting their feelings? Why are those who exited Chinese market finding out that they've lost much more that they've bargained for?

So, right now China will do anything, even kowtow if they have to stop US and EU from sanctioning Chinese branded products and apps. That's why you see Tiktok bending the knee just to maintain market access.
NEVER! China will NEVER KOWTOW to anyone, especially not the West. No aspiring major power should ever kowtow to the West. Japan did it, and their miracle story is over. South Korea did it, and their decline have started to manifest. Russia did it, and was nearly destroyed. If China had kowtowed to the West, the West will impoverish China and break it apart. Anyone suggesting China to kowtow to the West for its own benefit is either a white supremacist, or a moron. Never ask any nation to kowtow to the West, it is arrogant, and disrespectful.

Tiktok didn't bend any knee, it just followed the rules of the country it is operating in. Same as what US companies need to do if they wanna do business in China. That Tiktok grilling by the US Congress was a farce, it showed Tiktok's professionalism to the world, and how retarded the US Congress are. Tiktok have prepared for the worse, and won't mind exiting the Western market. But the Western governments can't control the masses who loved Tiktok. And that scares them.

Europe and US are already rich and can afford to attack China. But China is still poor and wants to be rich. So, it has no choice but to make concessions just to have the opportunity to become rich. Thats why China was forced to do the trade deal with Trump. They essentially bent the knee because they were in a weaker position.
What era are you living in? The 1990s or the 2000s? Yeah, the US and Europe attacked China. Not because they are rich, but because they are arrogant pr**ks. Still, China didn't become poor again. Its economy is still growing at a healthy pace. Where are we seeing ghettos and tent cities in the urban centers? Where are we seeing fentanyl crises? Where are we seeing widespread personal insolvencies? Where are we witnessing rampant criminal activities? These are signs of a sick economy.

Trump launched the trade war in 2018, and its ongoing till now. The result? China is winning hands down today. The US economy has never been as weak as it is now. Manufacturing in China grew, while it stagnated in the US. The US is experiencing stagflation. If it wasn't for the sacrifice of Europe, the US economy would have been in serious trouble by now.

China will have to play a very delicate diplomatic game so that US and Europe do not become too hostile to ban everything Chinese. And this is what they are doing. When US attacks with sanctions and bans, China does not retaliate proportionally. They do a symbolic retaliation but keep asking for peace and for a deal. This is how they want to reduce US and western animosity towards China and continue to gain wealth.

This is China's biggest long term crisis, How to keep US and EU market for Chinese products over the long term.

So far I think its hopeless. The trend is extremely negative.
Do not mistaken China's goodwill as weakness. China desires Western business, but it won't beg for it. If the West wanna cut off, it won't be good for China, but China is prepared to adapt. In any case, China can produce practically all essential items that it needs. What it can't produce, China will work it out eventually. The US have cut China out off the ISS. China then built its own space station. If there is any nation who can adapt, China is on the top of the list today.

The West cutting off from China is gonna be even uglier. Where are they gonna get affordable common products? Where are they gonna get the stuff they need for Xmas? Local production? That's gonna cost so much more. Manufacture in SEA and India? They've tried that for well over a decade already, and it still have not weaned them off from China. Despite the population and the hype, India is not the next China, never will be. Anyone who is still betting on that is welcomed to continue betting and losing your bets.

Despite the ongoing cold war, Westerners are still buying up container loads of Chinese made products. Western youths are happily posting contents on Tiktok. Westerners are getting more curious about China thanks to the cold war, and many have found China to actually be a great nation. The Cold War launched by the Western elites is not having the desired effect, because people have access to alternative medias today.

The long term crisis is actually in the West. I would argue that they have accelerated it into a medium term crisis. You don't need to project the West's ugly situation on China. China's future is actually brighter than the West and its lackeys. The trend in the West is negative, and if they double down on their cold war, it will eventually become extremely negative.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder why some people here want to try to portray China as developed country and equally prosperous as US and Europe.

If China is already so prosperous and rich, then does that mean it has already caught up to the rich countries and no longer has potential to grow> Is China's total GDP to be stuck in 19 trillion dollars when it could be 100 trillion dollars?

Why would you want that when China's headline GDP per capita is just $13K. When China's Urbanization rate is 65% and 25% of Chinese labor force is still involved in Agriculture. When just 10% China's population has university degree.

Why would China be equally prosperous to the west when China's global brands are not dominating the world yet?


China's poverty should be seen as potential room for growth. Not a weakness. China has a huge room for future growth and that should not be seen as a weakness. If China's living standards is already as good as the west, that is a problem. Cause that means its not going to grow much in the future.

China has the potential to be 3-4 times bigger than total US gdp. We should not be happy with where China is now. We hsould hope China keeps growing and eventually reaches US/Germany level of GDP per capita
 

GZDRefugee

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't have any numbers for California or Shanghai, but have them for Hong Kong and NYC.

Regular food is ~2.5x more expensive. Cheap food is ~4x more expensive. Utilities is 2.7x more expensive in aggregate. Individually, it is 5x for water, 3.2x for electricity, 3x for internet (better in HK for this price too), and roughly the same for gas. Transportation is 1.5x-7.5x more expensive depending on whether or not you need to cross the sea / take the tram or bus in HK. Rent (per sq ft) is roughly the same.

So basic costs are about 2.5x-3x more expensive in NYC compared to HK for 1 person. Shanghai is going to be much cheaper than HK. Perhaps some folks live in Shanghai and have been to HK can further extend the comparison.

From online sources, it seems like Shanghai's CoL would be less than half of HK, so maybe a 6x multiplier vis-a-vis NYC?
That's pretty nebulous. I would like a proper sample along with some concrete numbers. Again, the reality is that most people in China and the US do not live in HK and NYC respectively.
 

Staedler

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's pretty nebulous. I would like a proper sample along with some concrete numbers. Again, the reality is that most people in China and the US do not live in HK and NYC respectively.

We're talking about how far your money goes, i.e. the discretionary income between the two countries. Whatever the disparity is between the largest wealthiest cities, it's going to be even smaller in the less wealthy, less urbane areas of the countries. If the effective value of your money is 3x in HK vs NYC, it's going to be even more in say Henan vs Kansas. That's how these numbers work. The question is whether the effective value of money is rising faster than your actual total cash is dropping as you switch to different places. Other folks have already given plenty on what those total cash numbers look like.

Kowloon to Hong Kong Island by MTR is ~$14 HKD ($1.8). Tram is $3 HKD ($0.5). Bus is ~$8 HKD ($1).
The MTA in NYC is $2.9 USD. If you don't take transit except for work, you're looking at $20-$72 in HK vs $116 per month.

Electricity is $280 HKD ($36) for 300 kWh vs $116
Water is $43 HKD ($5.5) for 7 m3 vs $27 (actually closer to $32 since HK uses free seawater for flushing)
Natural gas is $152 HKD ($19.5) for 4 therms (~430 MJ) vs $18.5
Internet is $119 HKD ($15) vs $45

At the end of the day, your utilities will cost you around $600 HKD ($77 USD) vs $213. Scale up or down depending on how consumption heavy you are but these are fairly typical numbers for 1 person.

Typical food on the island around $70 HKD ($9) vs $22. The real cheap places are $24 HKD ($3) vs $12. These are pre-tax, no-tips places too. With taxes & tips, it's more like $27.5 and $15. If you're eating out twice a day without searching for cheap places, you're going to be burning around 4.2k HKD ($540) per month vs $1320 ($1650 post tax/tips). If you're super cheap, you'll make it $180 vs $720.

Rents going to be around $2300 USD for both places given similar ammenities and size. In reality, it could be a bit less expensive in HK just because HK has a lot more new buildings and NYC has very few so accounting for building age, you could probably rent a similar flat in HK for 20-30% less than NYC.

So your basic discretionary spendings' going to be $2937-$2989 vs $3949. Except HK's rent is out of pace with everywhere else in China and home ownership and % in multigenerational homes is still much higher than the US, so if we ignore rent on both sides, it's $637-$689 vs $1649. Being cheap with food, will get you to $277-$329 vs $1049. So 2.5 to 3x in basic discretionary spending.

The only stuff that isn't significantly cheaper is high-end brand name electronics like Nvidia 4080/4090s because its basically the same price everywhere that's not tariffed to hell.
 
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Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
I wonder why some people here want to try to portray China as developed country and equally prosperous as US and Europe.

If China is already so prosperous and rich, then does that mean it has already caught up to the rich countries and no longer has potential to grow> Is China's total GDP to be stuck in 19 trillion dollars when it could be 100 trillion dollars?

Why would you want that when China's headline GDP per capita is just $13K. When China's Urbanization rate is 65% and 25% of Chinese labor force is still involved in Agriculture. When just 10% China's population has university degree.

Why would China be equally prosperous to the west when China's global brands are not dominating the world yet?


China's poverty should be seen as potential room for growth. Not a weakness. China has a huge room for future growth and that should not be seen as a weakness. If China's living standards is already as good as the west, that is a problem. Cause that means its not going to grow much in the future.

China has the potential to be 3-4 times bigger than total US gdp. We should not be happy with where China is now. We hsould hope China keeps growing and eventually reaches US/Germany level of GDP per capita
The vast majority of the China supporters in this forum do not consider China a developed nation. We are not the same as the Jai Hinds. We praised China's achievements and resilience, but we are not delusional to proclaim that China have becomed a developed nation. Still, why should we not be proud when China had achieved so much, even when it is still a developing nation?

The Chinese leadership, do not practice self-glorification like their counterparts in India. They are happy with what their nation had achieved, but they never consider China a developed nation. When Trump dropped China from the US's own list of developing nations, the Chinese government was livid. I'm confident that even if China achieves developed nation status by every conceivable metric, the Chinese leadership would still consider China a developing nation. It's because they want to avoid the pitfalls of the Qing Dynasty and the Western leaders. Because once you consider your nation's development to be complete, bad things start to happen. It starts with complacency, then arrogance, and then finally delusional insanity. Under the leadership of the CPC, China will continuously develop, no matter it's development level.

What most of the China supporters in this forum are very upset about is the efforts by the West and it's lackeys to stop China's development today. We know what the West ultimately wants to do with China. That is why we despise anyone saying that China must kowtow to the West. This is exactly what the West wants. They want China to submit to them. Just like the late Qing Dynasty, the ROC, Japan, South Korea, and Russia in the past. The moment China submits to the West, they will do their utmost to colonize, bully, humiliate, impoverish, and finally break it up. It is an existential matter for China. We and China will never accept submission to the West, no matter their threats and coercion. That is why we support the modernization of the PLA and the expansion of China's nuclear deterrence. So that the West can never resort to war to put China down.

You argued that the West has the upper hand in this cold war with China. No they don't. Not anymore since 2018. They once had the upper hand when Trump initiated the Trade War. What they have never considered was the resilience and ingenuity of the Chinese people. They used every tool in their kit short of open warfare to push China down. China went through some truly horrible times from 2018 - 2022. Trade war, HK riots, Covid, hostile neighbours, etc. Yet after all that, it's the West that came out weaker.

So it's not wrong to praise China and call the arrogant West out. Wumaos are not Jai Hinds, period. It's insulting to be compared with that pathetic group of morons and degenerates.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Trade wars can be bad for Europe but its also bad for China as well. Especially now, When China is no longer contract manufacturer but active brand builder.

Chinese brands will be the primary driver of China's future growth. So, Chinese branded Cars, Tvs, Computers, Phones, Apps such as Tiktok and Temu. These Chinese branded products will have much bigger profit if they have access to US, EU and other western allied markets.

This is China's biggest long term crisis, How to keep US and EU market for Chinese products over the long term.

So far I think its hopeless. The trend is extremely negative.

Chinese companies are skipping brand development when possible, just buy existing brands
Volvo
GE Appliances
ThinkPad
Toshiba TVs (In a strange reversal, it is a low end brand of Hisense)
Hoover/Milwaukee Tools/Ryobi (Techtronic company HK)
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder why some people here want to try to portray China as developed country and equally prosperous as US and Europe.

If China is already so prosperous and rich, then does that mean it has already caught up to the rich countries and no longer has potential to grow> Is China's total GDP to be stuck in 19 trillion dollars when it could be 100 trillion dollars?

Why would you want that when China's headline GDP per capita is just $13K. When China's Urbanization rate is 65% and 25% of Chinese labor force is still involved in Agriculture. When just 10% China's population has university degree.

Why would China be equally prosperous to the west when China's global brands are not dominating the world yet?


China's poverty should be seen as potential room for growth. Not a weakness. China has a huge room for future growth and that should not be seen as a weakness. If China's living standards is already as good as the west, that is a problem. Cause that means its not going to grow much in the future.

China has the potential to be 3-4 times bigger than total US gdp. We should not be happy with where China is now. We hsould hope China keeps growing and eventually reaches US/Germany level of GDP per capita

The larger the country is, the harder it is to bring the standards of living up for every individual (GDP per capita). Basic life-sense.

For example, hypothetically, let's say Singapore has to attract thousands of large factories (FDI) to be prosperous, whereas China, due to its enormous population would need to bring hundreds of thousands of such factories.

And we know that FDI is not infinite, domestic business ideas are not infinite, capital required for investing is not infinite, and factors of production are not infinite.

Therefore, every next foreign investor and domestic business running is harder to get than the last one, it is not infinite supply.

That's why it is funny to compare for example Mickey Mouse vassals such as Estonia, and Lithuania against China in standards of living.

Better compare the current China, to the current India and Africa which all roughly have the same population sizes, to be honest.

Let's say we take India for example, it has a 4-5 times smaller GDP than China, 7 times smaller global exports share, 6 times smaller global manufacturing share, 6 times less electricity production, 9 times less steel production, 25 times fewer patents yearly, 16 times less R&D spending, etc...

China currently spends more electricity yearly than all G7 countries combined and, from a pure industrial standpoint is miles ahead of them.

Western service-based economies and their per capita GDPs are useless metrics for comparing different nations' economic powers.

Only some kind of kids look at those metrics. Meanwhile, even with such a smaller GDP per capita, Chinese people are still miles ahead in terms of happiness, support of their government, and less division in society, in basically all kinds of polls from Western agencies.

So if even the one thing that useless consumerism and service-based economies are good for (inner social peace), the West failed too.

I don't see how it will help the US in a war with China their GDP per capita. Meanwhile, I see how Chinese industrial might help China.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
China doesn't need to kowtow to the West because it is the one who has all the real goods whereas the West (except Japan and Germany, a few more...) has some illusionary paper money printed. This is an objective fact. They need China more than China needs them, that's for sure.

Let's see triple-digit hyperinflation, empty Walmarts, Home Depots, Costcos, Targets, and civil wars, in Western societies without Chinese goods on their shelves.

Trump tried that bullshit trade war and what happened? Their deficit with China only skyrocketed since then to even more comical proportions.

Ok, the US doesn't want Chinese goods anymore, but how are they going to run their 80% service-based ponzi economy then? (Service = reselling mostly Chinese goods to its own citizens for a profit with printed money previously given to them from social programs and other government channels).

They would get into hyperinflation really quickly (what follows is less corporate profits, firings, unemployment, falling fake 'GDP', and civil riots), plus China would dump all of their currencies and bonds, creating even bigger inflationary pressure from all across the world - total apocalypse.

Where is the infrastructure in the US required from them to go back to the real economy from the decades of consumerism? Where are the skilled workers in manufacturing, who are also willing to work those kinds of 'hard' jobs, where are their industrial ecosystems ready for it, etc...?
 
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