Miscellaneous News

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
One can argue that the UN is toothless against a superpower but this kind of wear against ones reputation is what we are happy to see happen to the US.
The US's moral reputation has been dragged through the mud throughout the entirety of its existence, but that didn't stop it from ascending to the power it became after WWII. Similarly, its decline today isn't the result of the constant train of crimes it's committed since its inception. It's declining because of changing economic and military trends; it's declining because China is rising.

Pointing fingers at the US, castigating it for its criminal actions, and "owning" it on social media is fun and makes us feel good, but it doesn't diminish the US in any meaningful way. China's rise does.

Having said that, China wouldn't suffer any moral injury as a result of declaring a clear policy about the acceptable strategic orientation of neighbouring countries (either aligning with China or remaining neutral, with no foreign alliances) and being willing to enforce that policy with force.
We should not pretend that it doesn't matter when it happens to China, a nation that is still in its infancy of superpower status.
Drawing a clear red line in a very reasonable place to defend its national security interests does China no moral injury and doesn't stain its reputation with the Global South, either with the elites or publics of those countries. The libs in those countries would cry, but they cry about everything China does anyway.
This is a very fancy way of saying that nobody in the global south knows or cares about right or wrong.
It's more nuanced than that. What I'm saying is that to people in the Global South - like people everywhere - "right or wrong" is subjective and secondary to national and personal interest. Even if China's actions went against their moral code, they would rationalize it and explain it away because maintaining a good relationship with China is in their interest. They would act like European countries do in their alliance with the US - the US does far worse than China would ever do even if it were more aggressive than I suggest, yet the NATO alliance remains ironclad and cooperation with the US continues.
When the world voted on America's oppression of Cuba, those countries that voted were not the ones bullied. Same with Gaza.
Cuba and Gaza are completely different cases. Cuba was punished during the Cold War because of the US's ideological anti-Communist fanaticism and it continues today because of inertia and spite. The only legitimate cause the US had to take hostile action against Cuba was when it hosted Soviet nuclear weapons. Gaza is a concentration camp for people Israel dispossessed of their land. The world condemns these actions and rightly so.

China insisting countries around it not host foreign military forces or enter into hostile military alliances designed to contain it is completely different.
Once again, China is only in its infancy of superpower status; if it acted at your directions, the whole world, not just the Western world, would fear the abomination of a tyrant it should become should it truly achieve unrivalled power.
I should clarify that I don't advocate that China adopt such a policy now as it's not strong enough to enforce it now. I suspect our view on what China should do in the short and medium term would be identical: keep building. As for the whole world, I see the Global South as being on China's side no matter what, since having a strong and wealthy partner that has no hostility toward them will always be in their interest.

You've stated your admiration for Russia on several occasions, and I recall you saying that President Putin was your favourite leader after President Xi. What do you make of Russia's invasion of Ukraine? This is a clear-cut act of aggression by your standards. Ukraine did nothing unacceptable by exercising its sovereignty in choosing to join NATO and host troops from countries hostile to Russia.

How did the Global South react? Aside from some customary condemnation at the UNGA, and a very eloquent speech by the Kenyan ambassador at the UNSC, the reaction has ranged from disinterest to outright support for Russia. If they're upset by anything, it's rising food prices as a result of the war. Outside the liberal bubbles, there's no condemnation for Russia's actions. If anything, they're happy the West took a hit.
It's not an excess of morality; it is common human decency in modern times.
It's never that simple and clear-cut. There are always caveats.
The just war would be on the opposing country's behalf. They have the right to host whomever they want on their own land. Your gangster logic is exactly what people hear when they're extorted by mobsters. "This is your fault. I don't want to break your fingers or set your home on fire or kill your family. You can stop it all just by signing 51% of your company over to me. If you don't, it's really like you breaking your own fingers and setting your own house on fire with your poor family in it. The responsibility would be on your hands, totally your choice. Why do you want to do that to your family?" Chinese people are not stupid; we don't see your gangster logic as any kind of justice.
They have no such right and stating this does not make it gangster logic. They have no right to threaten China's national security by participating in alliances aimed at containing and threatening China. Gangster logic would be if China threatened them with force if they didn't sign favourable trade agreements with it or privilege its commercial and economic interests, which I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see is not what I'm advocating. Gangster logic would be if China mandated that the Japanese Communist Party govern Japan. That isn't what I'm advocating either.

To be perfectly clear, if they still refuse to respect China's security, then they will get their fingers broken and houses set on fire. If you think it's gangster logic for China to defend this legitimate and critical interest even at the expense of others' sovereignty, so be it.
The CCP never talks like you. The Chinese people are always taught to hate imperialism. Chinese culture has an exuberance of sympathy for the weak, poor and oppressed. We despise bullies and when we see them, we hunt them on the internet until they have no place to hide. This new gangster persona you cast on China is in your own mind. We're not that kind of people.
What the CPC says and thinks has changed drastically over the years and I don't see why that would stop. It's true that the Chinese public's current view is broadly "go along to get along", but that's also changed drastically over the years. There's been a notable rise in what the US calls "nationalism" - which is really just self-respect and national pride - in recent years and I expect that to continue.

Even today, there's no outright rejection of the use of force to defend China's national interest, even if it impinges on the sovereignty of others.
Sovereignty always trumps interests. No matter what, you cannot violate your neigbors' rights for your own interests. That should be common basic knowledge.
I cannot overstate how profoundly I disagree with this. There is no absolute principle in international relations, not even sovereignty which is the closest thing there is to it. Sovereignty is not absolute.
Your neighbor has the right to invite his friend to his house even if you hate the dude.
The problem isn't that I hate the dude, the problem is the dude wants to kill me. If my neighbour has the right to invite whomever he pleases into his home, my right to self-defence trumps his right and I will enforce that right with violence if need be. Yes, I agree that I should try everything else first, I should try to be nicer to him, invest in his company, cajole him, threaten him, whatever.

But if all else fails, I have a higher right than his right to free association to grab my rifle and open fire on him and his friend. If the rest of the neighbourhood has a problem with it, I can tell them with a clear conscience that I tried everything with him, that it had to be done, and that there are no problems between me and them.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I agree with the overall point about the blue collar shortage but I am pretty sure that what was formerly Bombardier Transportation built cars in the 90s and 2000s. For sure they did in Thunder Bay for Canadian orders. In fact I worked at a Bombardier supplier 10 years ago as a student intern but I think they also did in New York State for NYC orders.

Thunder Bay isn’t USA
 
The US government really cares the well-being of their people and compensates generously. Or, the value of USD977m is considered reasonable / norm for a wealthy country....... everyone's' disabilities or death in USA worth multiple millions. In other countries, i never heard of such high compensation before.

The US judiciary system have too many conflicting precedent resulting in very inconsistent and subjective judgement. It can go from one extreme to another depending on the court and jury.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I agree with the overall point about the blue collar shortage but I am pretty sure that what was formerly Bombardier Transportation built cars in the 90s and 2000s. For sure they did in Thunder Bay for Canadian orders. In fact I worked at a Bombardier supplier 10 years ago as a student intern but I think they also did in New York State for NYC orders.
Thunder Bay did a piss poor job at building TTC streetcars.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
The US's moral reputation has been dragged through the mud throughout the entirety of its existence, but that didn't stop it from ascending to the power it became after WWII. Similarly, its decline today isn't the result of the constant train of crimes it's committed since its inception. It's declining because of changing economic and military trends; it's declining because China is rising.

Pointing fingers at the US, castigating it for its criminal actions, and "owning" it on social media is fun and makes us feel good, but it doesn't diminish the US in any meaningful way. China's rise does.
American global management fell off a cliff after China's rise began to challenge it. The US was never a saint, but before China, American behavior was largely benevolent and it tolerated most competition. As my dad said in the 90's, "Americans do some shit things but they're a hell of a lot better than the Brits were." After Trump's term in office, he recanted that statement. Now, with China, America's mask has fallen off willing to do anything from threats to bribery, hindering all of human progress in hopes of styming China. That has made many people lose respect for the US, which once held a visage of supreme confidence and power.

These things do diminish America, a country that is reliant on foreign talent inflows and it does matter to China too, a country that is still only second to the US and the world's largest trading nation. China invest untold sums of wealth into cultivating its relationship with the global south; it's not because their support doesn't matter.
Having said that, China wouldn't suffer any moral injury as a result of declaring a clear policy about the acceptable strategic orientation of neighbouring countries (either aligning with China or remaining neutral, with no foreign alliances) and being willing to enforce that policy with force.

Drawing a clear red line in a very reasonable place to defend its national security interests does China no moral injury and doesn't stain its reputation with the Global South, either with the elites or publics of those countries. The libs in those countries would cry, but they cry about everything China does anyway.
Yes, China would suffer moral injury from declaring a redline that is within other countries' sovereign rights. Would you accept a Soviet Union declaring that China must join it (basically the same at the East Asian Cooperation Sphere) or be attacked and beaten into submission? If you think this is unacceptable to Chinese people, why would it be acceptable to Japan or Korea? If you think that the rules that apply to you don't apply to others, that is the root of unfairness and that is what everyone hates the US for. No one has any reason to support China over the US if this is what Pax Sinica would look like.
It's more nuanced than that. What I'm saying is that to people in the Global South - like people everywhere - "right or wrong" is subjective and secondary to national and personal interest. Even if China's actions went against their moral code, they would rationalize it and explain it away because maintaining a good relationship with China is in their interest.
Exactly what I said. They will turn a blind eye and accept your actions with gritted teeth but their true support or respect, you would not have by acting like a gangster telling others they didn't see nothin'.
They would act like European countries do in their alliance with the US - the US does far worse than China would ever do even if it were more aggressive than I suggest, yet the NATO alliance remains ironclad and cooperation with the US continues.
If you attacked other peaceful countries simply for being American allies, how would the US be far worse??? It'd be the same. NATO is held together by their fear of China and Russia and the fact that they are all Caucasian. Do not expect the mixed and nuanced global south countries to form this bond with China when we are all different people and they are not threatened by Russia or a US that has been relegated by Chinese power. Truthfully, we are not even there yet, if we can ever get there with your attitude. The way you want things run, America, a country that still has greater comprehensive power than China, would only need a couple of sweet words and some dollar donations to take these countries away from China's ally list. They are there because China does things for them but also because they hate the bully that America is and was to them. They remember being colonized and they can see it if China does this to other countries. If China becomes the same bully, and America starts its printing press for them, their alliance with China would be very very shaky.
Cuba and Gaza are completely different cases. Cuba was punished during the Cold War because of the US's ideological anti-Communist fanaticism and it continues today because of inertia and spite. The only legitimate cause the US had to take hostile action against Cuba was when it hosted Soviet nuclear weapons. Gaza is a concentration camp for people Israel dispossessed of their land. The world condemns these actions and rightly so.
They'll condemn Chinese actions too for attacking peaceful countries that align with the US. An invasion of any country can produce images of the poor and the slaughtered like we see in Gaza.
China insisting countries around it not host foreign military forces or enter into hostile military alliances designed to contain it is completely different.
No it's not. It's the same. You're violating others' rights for your own interests, the definition of gangster behavior.
I should clarify that I don't advocate that China adopt such a policy now as it's not strong enough to enforce it now.
Obviously you don't. You know acting with such evil now will get us all killed. You want to be evil when you have unchallenged power and that's why the whole world works to ensure that evil is caught early before it can become strong.
I suspect our view on what China should do in the short and medium term would be identical: keep building.
Yeah, keep being good. But in the long run, you want to turn China into a second America while I want China to use our unique innate power to show the world what a fair ruler looks like.
As for the whole world, I see the Global South as being on China's side no matter what, since having a strong and wealthy partner that has no hostility toward them will always be in their interest.
There is no such thing as "no matter what." All alliances are conditional. America can be a stronger and wealthier partner today and accepts anyone who bends the knee to American imperialism but they refuse because they hate imperialism. They hate American imperialism and they will hate Chinese imperialism just as much.
You've stated your admiration for Russia on several occasions, and I recall you saying that President Putin was your favourite leader after President Xi. What do you make of Russia's invasion of Ukraine? This is a clear-cut act of aggression by your standards. Ukraine did nothing unacceptable by exercising its sovereignty in choosing to join NATO and host troops from countries hostile to Russia.
How did the Global South react? Aside from some customary condemnation at the UNGA, and a very eloquent speech by the Kenyan ambassador at the UNSC, the reaction has ranged from disinterest to outright support for Russia. If they're upset by anything, it's rising food prices as a result of the war. Outside the liberal bubbles, there's no condemnation for Russia's actions. If anything, they're happy the West took a hit.
No, Ukraine did many things including ethnic cleansing of its Russian population and the very fact is that a large portion of Ukraine was pro-Russia at the beginning. From a CIA-funded operation, these people were driven out or killed. Ukraine was hijacked from a staunch Russian ally to becoming a NATO zombie and Russia is rescuing it. This is not Japan and not Korea.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
It's never that simple and clear-cut. There are always caveats.
They have no such right and stating this does not make it gangster logic. They have no right to threaten China's national security by participating in alliances aimed at containing and threatening China. Gangster logic would be if China threatened them with force if they didn't sign favourable trade agreements with it or privilege its commercial and economic interests, which I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see is not what I'm advocating. Gangster logic would be if China mandated that the Japanese Communist Party govern Japan. That isn't what I'm advocating either.
The problem is obvious and it's that you clearly don't know what a right is. They have every right to participate in any alliance and it is up to China to defeat these alliances, within legal realms if they remain legal, but through war if they head down that path.

Your writing is getting really ridiculous and it's shocking that you argue as if you had reason. Did you even bother to flip things and ask how you would feel if the sentence/situation were reversed? You wrote this:

"They have no right to threaten China's national security by participating in alliances aimed at containing and threatening China."

How about this?

"China has no right to threaten America's national security by participating in alliances aimed at containing and threatening the US."

If you think that the top sentence is ok but the bottom sentence is nonsense, then you are under the delusion that you have more rights than other countries. Which, once again, is the root of all unfairness.
To be perfectly clear, if they still refuse to respect China's security, then they will get their fingers broken and houses set on fire. If you think it's gangster logic for China to defend this legitimate and critical interest even at the expense of others' sovereignty, so be it.
Once again, sovereignty trumps all, including security. Flip your sentence again and check it:

"To be perfectly clear, if China still refuse to respect America's security, then they will get their fingers broken and houses set on fire. If you think it's gangster logic for America to defend this legitimate and critical interest even at the expense of others' sovereignty, so be it."

Sound good to you? Next time, flip check it before posting.
What the CPC says and thinks has changed drastically over the years and I don't see why that would stop. It's true that the Chinese public's current view is broadly "go along to get along", but that's also changed drastically over the years. There's been a notable rise in what the US calls "nationalism" - which is really just self-respect and national pride - in recent years and I expect that to continue.
Yes, they can continue to change. But turning into the imperialist that China constantly preached hatred towards will not happen.
Even today, there's no outright rejection of the use of force to defend China's national interest, even if it impinges on the sovereignty of others.
No. What is your case? I've never seen China try to run over other countries' sovereignty before unless of course it collides with China's sovereignty along the course of territorial dispute.
I cannot overstate how profoundly I disagree with this. There is no absolute principle in international relations, not even sovereignty which is the closest thing there is to it. Sovereignty is not absolute.
Then neither is China's and then according to your logic the US, with all its FONOPS and interference over Taiwan, has done nothing wrong as it was simply guarding its own national interest to suppress its rival. Neither has it done anything wrong by supporting Israel because it's in America's national interest to see Israel triumph in the middle east. There are no morals to abide by anymore in the world if you believe that sovereignty is not absolute but can be bent by interests.
The problem isn't that I hate the dude, the problem is the dude wants to kill me. If my neighbour has the right to invite whomever he pleases into his home, my right to self-defence trumps his right and I will enforce that right with violence if need be. Yes, I agree that I should try everything else first, I should try to be nicer to him, invest in his company, cajole him, threaten him, whatever.
Well then, if the dude tries to kill you, then kill him when he's trying. But that's not accurate. The US has NOT tried to kill China but has tried in every other way to weaken China. If he used that house as a weapon cache to attack you from, you have every right to blow it up in self defense. And I've said I support waging war over Japan or Korea if America conducts kinetic operations against China from those bases. But they didn't so we can't pretend they did.
But if all else fails, I have a higher right than his right to free association to grab my rifle and open fire on him and his friend. If the rest of the neighbourhood has a problem with it, I can tell them with a clear conscience that I tried everything with him, that it had to be done, and that there are no problems between me and them.
If they attack you, which they have not. And once again, you can't just pretend they did.
 
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Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
I agree with the overall point about the blue collar shortage but I am pretty sure that what was formerly Bombardier Transportation built cars in the 90s and 2000s. For sure they did in Thunder Bay for Canadian orders. In fact I worked at a Bombardier supplier 10 years ago as a student intern but I think they also did in New York State for NYC orders.

Thunder Bay isn’t USA

And Bombardier is Canadian, which should be rather obvious. Bombardier Transportation did have a manufacturing plant in the US (and still does as Bombardier's train business has since been bought out by Alstom who is the current owner), so guess who had to teach the workers there to make the trains? Not Canadians but actually Austrians because Bombardier was in the train business in the first place by buying a train maker based in Vienna.

The NYC Subway also has a number of suppliers for their rolling stock, Bombardier (now Alstrom which is French) is one of them, others are Kawasaki and Siemens, none of them American.

CRRC's American operations are chiefly based in Massachusetts i.e. 'CRRC MA' which has a manufacturing plant in Springfield supplying the rolling stock for Boston's subway system, Chicago's metro (out of CRRC's Chicago plant), and LA's metro.



Mass. -

Chicago -

LA -
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
And Bombardier is Canadian, which should be rather obvious. Bombardier Transportation did have a manufacturing plant in the US (and still does as Bombardier's train business has since been bought out by Alstom who is the current owner), so guess who had to teach the workers there to make the trains? Not Canadians but actually Austrians because Bombardier was in the train business in the first place by buying a train maker based in Vienna.

The NYC Subway also has a number of suppliers for their rolling stock, Bombardier (now Alstrom which is French) is one of them, others are Kawasaki and Siemens, none of them American.

CRRC's American operations are chiefly based in Massachusetts i.e. 'CRRC MA' which has a manufacturing plant in Springfield supplying the rolling stock for Boston's subway system, Chicago's metro (out of CRRC's Chicago plant), and LA's metro.



Mass. -

Chicago -

LA -

I am well aware of Bombardier's origins. The Thunder Bay plant was actually previously owned by Hawker Siddley (the British airplane maker) until the collapse of the company in the 80's. The plant was subsequently taken over by the Canadian Government and undertook the production of Street Cars and the boondoggle of the Scarborough RT.

The original RT layout was not designed for larger trains, so it could never be upgraded with newer trainsets which in the end led to poor reliability. However, the design was pressed into service to show that it was operationally viable. In the end though, they did manage to sell the design to Vancouver, and subsequently Kuala Lumpur and Beijing, so the goal was achieved.

I realized I slightly misread @Intention 's post and realize that indeed assembly of MTA cars are done in NY State. That being said, I no longer remember the exact article specifying the details of what is being done in CRRC MA that was hasn't been done in the US for a long time. It might be the passenger railcars (such as the ones for SEPTA-Philadelphia)

CRRC is having a lot of issues in the USA, and is not being helped by being a target of political tension including Trump raising tariffs on the sub assemblies imported into the US from China and politicians calling them "spy trains". They are also not helped with the inevitable culture clashes that come with a new foreign venture and workers still getting up to speed. They are being accused of poor quality (though the MBTA says the delivered trains are good), which inevitably means "bad Chinese quality" to the average American. Of course, how many billions of rides are taken by Chinese people on "Chinese quality" trains on a daily basis?

Hopefully they iron out these issues, it seems like Chicago is going much more smoothly.
 
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