Miscellaneous News

Helius

Senior Member
Registered Member
I am well aware of Bombardier's origins. The Thunder Bay plant was actually previously owned by Hawker Siddley (the British airplane maker) until the collapse of the company in the 80's. The plant was subsequently taken over by the Canadian Government and undertook the production of Street Cars and the boondoggle of the Scarborough RT.

The original RT layout was not designed for larger trains, so it could never be upgraded with newer trainsets which in the end led to poor reliability. However, the design was pressed into service to show that it was operationally viable. In the end though, they did manage to sell the design to Vancouver, and subsequently Kuala Lumpur and Beijing, so the goal was achieved.

I realized I slightly misread @Intention 's post and realize that indeed assembly of MTA cars are done in NY State. That being said, I no longer remember the exact article specifying the details of what is being done in CRRC MA that was hasn't been done in the US for a long time. It might be the passenger railcars (such as the ones for SEPTA-Philadelphia)

CRRC is having a lot of issues in the USA, and is not being helped by being a target of political tension including Trump raising tariffs on the sub assemblies imported into the US from China and politicians calling them "spy trains". They are also not helped with the inevitable culture clashes that come with a new foreign venture and workers still getting up to speed. They are being accused of poor quality (though the MBTA says the delivered trains are good), which inevitably means "bad Chinese quality" to the average American. Of course, how many billions of rides are taken by Chinese people on "Chinese quality" trains on a daily basis?

Hopefully they iron out these issues, it seems like Chicago is going much more smoothly.
I was addressing the comment you replied to regarding American-based train makers, or rather the lack thereof, and of course Bombardier being a Canadian firm despite operating in the US, just like CRRC.

On the subject of Philly's SEPTA, that deal AFAIK is still stuck in regulatory limbo because apparently some parts of that particular rolling stock couldn't be manufactured by the Springfield plant so they have to make them in China instead which goes against the requirement for the cars to be 'built in America'.

By contrast, in Massachusetts' case they actually want CRRC to hurry up with their deliveries, so much so that the Governor even accepts that some of the trains are being built in China to be shipped to the US because the Springfield plant simply doesn't have enough capacity to deliver the cars quickly enough -

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The stigma towards a Chinese firm supplying railcars to the US (even when said cars are actually made in-country) due to political hysteria shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, that much is also obvious. Qualitatively speaking any maker would invariably run into issues, and CRRC isn't immune either, whether it be production delays or defects that can be remedied prior to delivery, but nothing so serious as to cause detriment to actual passenger safety, but of course such things would also invariably be magnified purely on the fact that it's "Chinese, but American-made, but CHINESE".

Then we have makers like Kawasaki whose new models are actually defective to the point of being safety hazards after they have been put into service, yet I don't see anyone clamouring for banning "Japanese trains", which are also American-made -

 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
The US's moral reputation has been dragged through the mud throughout the entirety of its existence, but that didn't stop it from ascending to the power it became after WWII. Similarly, its decline today isn't the result of the constant train of crimes it's committed since its inception. It's declining because of changing economic and military trends; it's declining because China is rising.

Pointing fingers at the US, castigating it for its criminal actions, and "owning" it on social media is fun and makes us feel good, but it doesn't diminish the US in any meaningful way. China's rise does.

Having said that, China wouldn't suffer any moral injury as a result of declaring a clear policy about the acceptable strategic orientation of neighbouring countries (either aligning with China or remaining neutral, with no foreign alliances) and being willing to enforce that policy with force.

Drawing a clear red line in a very reasonable place to defend its national security interests does China no moral injury and doesn't stain its reputation with the Global South, either with the elites or publics of those countries. The libs in those countries would cry, but they cry about everything China does anyway.

It's more nuanced than that. What I'm saying is that to people in the Global South - like people everywhere - "right or wrong" is subjective and secondary to national and personal interest. Even if China's actions went against their moral code, they would rationalize it and explain it away because maintaining a good relationship with China is in their interest. They would act like European countries do in their alliance with the US - the US does far worse than China would ever do even if it were more aggressive than I suggest, yet the NATO alliance remains ironclad and cooperation with the US continues.

Cuba and Gaza are completely different cases. Cuba was punished during the Cold War because of the US's ideological anti-Communist fanaticism and it continues today because of inertia and spite. The only legitimate cause the US had to take hostile action against Cuba was when it hosted Soviet nuclear weapons. Gaza is a concentration camp for people Israel dispossessed of their land. The world condemns these actions and rightly so.

China insisting countries around it not host foreign military forces or enter into hostile military alliances designed to contain it is completely different.

I should clarify that I don't advocate that China adopt such a policy now as it's not strong enough to enforce it now. I suspect our view on what China should do in the short and medium term would be identical: keep building. As for the whole world, I see the Global South as being on China's side no matter what, since having a strong and wealthy partner that has no hostility toward them will always be in their interest.

You've stated your admiration for Russia on several occasions, and I recall you saying that President Putin was your favourite leader after President Xi. What do you make of Russia's invasion of Ukraine? This is a clear-cut act of aggression by your standards. Ukraine did nothing unacceptable by exercising its sovereignty in choosing to join NATO and host troops from countries hostile to Russia.

How did the Global South react? Aside from some customary condemnation at the UNGA, and a very eloquent speech by the Kenyan ambassador at the UNSC, the reaction has ranged from disinterest to outright support for Russia. If they're upset by anything, it's rising food prices as a result of the war. Outside the liberal bubbles, there's no condemnation for Russia's actions. If anything, they're happy the West took a hit.

It's never that simple and clear-cut. There are always caveats.

They have no such right and stating this does not make it gangster logic. They have no right to threaten China's national security by participating in alliances aimed at containing and threatening China. Gangster logic would be if China threatened them with force if they didn't sign favourable trade agreements with it or privilege its commercial and economic interests, which I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see is not what I'm advocating. Gangster logic would be if China mandated that the Japanese Communist Party govern Japan. That isn't what I'm advocating either.

To be perfectly clear, if they still refuse to respect China's security, then they will get their fingers broken and houses set on fire. If you think it's gangster logic for China to defend this legitimate and critical interest even at the expense of others' sovereignty, so be it.

What the CPC says and thinks has changed drastically over the years and I don't see why that would stop. It's true that the Chinese public's current view is broadly "go along to get along", but that's also changed drastically over the years. There's been a notable rise in what the US calls "nationalism" - which is really just self-respect and national pride - in recent years and I expect that to continue.

Even today, there's no outright rejection of the use of force to defend China's national interest, even if it impinges on the sovereignty of others.

I cannot overstate how profoundly I disagree with this. There is no absolute principle in international relations, not even sovereignty which is the closest thing there is to it. Sovereignty is not absolute.

The problem isn't that I hate the dude, the problem is the dude wants to kill me. If my neighbour has the right to invite whomever he pleases into his home, my right to self-defence trumps his right and I will enforce that right with violence if need be. Yes, I agree that I should try everything else first, I should try to be nicer to him, invest in his company, cajole him, threaten him, whatever.

But if all else fails, I have a higher right than his right to free association to grab my rifle and open fire on him and his friend. If the rest of the neighbourhood has a problem with it, I can tell them with a clear conscience that I tried everything with him, that it had to be done, and that there are no problems between me and them.
You know what is funny? I remember him spend dozens of pages arguing soft power don't matter and now all of a sudden reputation matters a lot. On one hand I am glad he now recognize soft power augments hard power, but I think he took the lesson too far!:p
 
  • Haha
Reactions: H2O
D

Deleted member 24525

Guest
You know what is funny? I remember him spend dozens of pages arguing soft power don't matter and now all of a sudden reputation matters a lot. On one hand I am glad he now recognize soft power augments hard power, but I think he took the lesson too far!:p
I think it depends on where the conceptual line is drawn. If we only count armed force as being hard power then yes obviously soft power matters, but if we include the power to coerce other states via technology, trade, finance etc into the hard power category then I think it would be correct to say soft power is basically an academic meme.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I think it depends on where the conceptual line is drawn. If we only count armed force as being hard power then yes obviously soft power matters, but if we include the power to coerce other states via technology, trade, finance etc into the hard power category then I think it would be correct to say soft power is basically an academic meme.
Yeah those are some grey areas, but I think reputation is firmly not in the hard power category.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pointing fingers at the US, castigating it for its criminal actions, and "owning" it on social media is fun and makes us feel good, but it doesn't diminish the US in any meaningful way. China's rise does.
Of course it makes a difference how people feel about US society and foreign policy. There are people who invest in India because they have accepted the fairy tale that India is a liberal democracy that shares the same values as the investor's home country. These people also don't invest in China for purely non business reasons.

The US being extremely unpopular in the Muslim world also makes it much harder for them to open bases in Muslim countries.

Yes, owning political enemies on social media makes a difference. Especially when you're educating the next generation which will be in charge of the West in 20 years and will be a lot less pro Israel
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You know what is funny? I remember him spend dozens of pages arguing soft power don't matter and now all of a sudden reputation matters a lot. On one hand I am glad he now recognize soft power augments hard power, but I think he took the lesson too far!:p
No, you're confused about these things. The "soft power" that was being argued is in media, etc... making people think your culture is cool, thus pulling thier punches and softening their approach towards you even when they have clashing interests with you. That was and still is nonsense. Here, you 2 are presenting the argument that China can act like a tyrant and a monster but that won't matter because others have no sense of right and wrong. No; that is nothing about "soft power" but the very normal and human desire to NOT be ruled over and likely bullied by a tyrant. It's tangible and demonstrable, seen in all revolts and rebellions in history, not at all like the unprecedented "soft power" concept of basically victory-by-coolness that was argued.
I think it depends on where the conceptual line is drawn. If we only count armed force as being hard power then yes obviously soft power matters, but if we include the power to coerce other states via technology, trade, finance etc into the hard power category then I think it would be correct to say soft power is basically an academic meme.
Wow, hell yeah, you got it right away. Do you know how many people struggle to understand that? Like 25 messages back and forth of my explaining the concept of nonviolent extensions of hard power (via technology, trade, finance etc...) and derps are still going, "But what are you gonna do? Bomb them? No, so you need soft power!"
 
Last edited:

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Here, you 2 are presenting the argument that China can act like a tyrant and a monster but that won't matter because others have no sense of right and wrong.
Question, is China a tyrant or a monster by asking SK to not deploy US THAAD on it's soil? It's well within SK's sovereign right to choose what military presence exist on it's own soil, but why is China allowed to get pissy/sanctions over US THAAD on SK soil?

Oh right, freedom of action is not freedom from consequences, your actions do impact your neighbors' national security interests... Superpowers will do what they want, and backwards justify it with national security (i.e., Cuban missile crisis, no Soviet missiles in Cuba)
 
Last edited:

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Question, is China a tyrant or a monster by asking SK to not deploy US THAAD on it's soil?
Noooo of course not.
It's well within SK's sovereign right to choose what military presence exist on it's own soil, but why is China allowed to get pissy/sanctions over US THAAD on SK soil?

Oh right, freedom of action is not freedom from consequences, your actions do impact your neighbors' national security interests...
China asked SK not to allow the US to deploy it. They did, so China boycotted SK products. Samsung never recovered from that. China can go much further, even cutting off diplomatic relations with SK or arming NK and these would all be legitimate answers to a legitmate threat that SK caused, yet still acting within its sovereign rights. But what I was arguing against is the direct military invasion of SK being a legitimate response and my answer is no. As long as they stay within their sovereign rights, we have no right to invade or attack them.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Here, you 2 are presenting the argument that China can act like a tyrant and a monster but that won't matter because others have no sense of right and wrong.
I'll have more to say about this later, but nothing of what I advocated is tyrannical or monstrous. You make it sound like I said China should go full Curtis LeMay if someone looked at it the wrong way. My entire argument is that China in the future should lower the threshold for the threat or use of force to include situations where vital but not strictly sovereignty-related interests were trampled on.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nothing burger debate

You should again look up my previous post on the Global Security Initiative and indivisible security. China's position is as clear as it (diplomatically) gets:
By rejecting the outdated idea of exclusive security and absolute security
GSI stresses that no country could have its own security ensured without the security of the wider world and that absolute security based on the insecurity of other countries does not exist.
 
Top