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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Its a catastrophic strategic defeat of Russia if either of them joins NATO. So Russia traded Ukraine (which was already supposed to be in Russia's influence anyway) with another country joining NATO

That's some "I am a very good negotiator" Trump energy right here. Putin should be proud for his 5D moves...
Don't you think your pronouncement is a tad overblown? I mean, what choice did Russia have in confronting a strategic dilemma with regards to Ukraine. There are some people that has this misguided persistent thinking that if only Russia wasn't under the thumb of Putin the war with Ukraine wouldn't have happened, but the belief in that premise is fiction and wrong. The right assumptions to be made is that if only NATO didn't expand, cheated Russia into eastward expansion of NATO especially announcing in 2008 that Ukraine would be inducted into the organization then war wouldn't have materialize. And to suggest that only Putin could have made the invasion possible is to totally ignore the politics, and history of Russia. No self-respecting proud Russian leader elected or not can ever allow his/her country to be surrounded by her enemies let alone close to it's doorstep, and most especially within a country whom it shared long historical, cultural, and religious ties.

As for Sweden, and Findland joining NATO we can't pretend that their possible inclusion weren't in the works for a long time and was just looking for a perfect fait accompli to enact this plan.

Russia has been pushed on all directions left with little to no choice in front of them taking the actions it took against Ukraine is the most viable of all the least viable solution it could find. What's the alternative? To cower, and prostrate themselves back to the West as they had done back in the 90's? And then to be used as a cannon fodder against China as the new baby bear for American interest.

Putin may have overestimated his troops ability in defeating the Ukrainian military quickly and decisively as suggested by a lot of military experts resulting into the unnecessary loss of military manpower and equipments, not to mention severely underestimating the resolve and economic punishments that the entire collective west have exacted against Russia. I just don't see what he could have done differently strategically to avoid this collision with the West. His country was and is economically weak, and uncompetitive minus the strength of Russian commodities, relies on military exports, reliant on the institutions of diplomatic power left behind by the USSR vis-a-vis Founding member of the U.N. other than their almost 7,000 nukes that's all they got.

@Overbom am I missing something here? If you were in Putin’s position what would you have done differently that would have avoided this catastrophe as you put it. And would the actions you propose guarantee that the outcome would not have arrive just the same?
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Are you high on OPIUM? May I ask sincerely why you think this way? Last I checked, under Xi's leadership and stewardship of the country, the economic projection of China has gained strength by strength, his Made in China 2025 was not only strategically important but also shows vision and wisdom. China's GDP per capita has reached or pass the middle income of $10,000 in 2021 and that's despite global covid-19, and recession. Most importantly, the military reforms and modernization happened on his watch much to your "IlikeChina" consternation. The passivity and timidity of China ended under his watch which caused the anger of your fellow kinsmen.

And if your contention is simply due to China's insistence of zero covid-19 policy and it's damaging your stocks then too f..ng bad. China is for the Chinese people(all 56 ethnic groups) in China and not for foreigners or Chinese liberal idiots.
 
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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Overbom am I missing something here? If you were in Putin’s position what would you have done differently that would have avoided this catastrophe as you put it. And would the actions you propose guarantee that the outcome would not have arrive just the same?
Putin is indeed in a disadvantageous position. However, let's not forget one thing. He messed up the war himself by his own political choices dictating military strategy. If he had a proper military, with minimal corruption, sound leaders (certainly not himself!) making military decisions then Russia would have been able to do a strategic turnaround.

However, due to his own decisions, he has messed up. There only is one rule in wars. When you are at a war, you go all-in, instead of this bs war we are witnessing today.
So, indeed, Putin is directly responsible for the bad strategic position that Russia is in today

Heck, even China used so much diplomatic capital covering him in order for Russia to finish the job properly. Instead, due to Putin's incompetency, we are still at the "special military operation" phase.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
There was a school district outside of Los Angeles where parents protested the teaching of Chinese be an elective in the school's curriculum. Why? Because to them just teaching Chinese tantamounted to brainwashing their children to be sympathetic to Chinese and it wasn't about communism. Now you know why the West has a history of forcing people they colonized to speak only the colonizer's language or be severely punished. Believing teaching someone another language is brainwashing is because that's what they did.
May I have the source(s) for this hilarious event?

I have some "woke" people to put in their own places.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Putin is indeed in a disadvantageous position. However, let's not forget one thing. He messed up the war himself by his own political choices dictating military strategy. If he had a proper military, with minimal corruption, sound leaders (certainly not himself!) making military decisions then Russia would have been able to do a strategic turnaround.

However, due to his own decisions, he has messed up. There only is one rule in wars. When you are at a war, you go all-in, instead of this bs war we are witnessing today.
So, indeed, Putin is directly responsible for the bad strategic position that Russia is in today
Be that as it may. What confidence do you have that if the war was waged in a manner that's befitting a proper strategy and leadership that Findland and Sweden's intent of joining NATO wouldn't materialize? I would argue that such overwhelming victory for Russia would have scared the living shit out of those two countries that it'd be stupid not to become part of a monstrous defensive alliance to ensure they're not next on the Russian menu.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Be that as it may. What confidence do you have that if the war was waged in a manner that's befitting a proper strategy and leadership that Findland and Sweden's intent of joining NATO wouldn't materialize? I would argue that such overwhelming victory for Russia would have scared the living shit out of those two countries that it'd be stupid not to become part of a monstrous defensive alliance to ensure they're not next on the Russian menu.
It would have scared them yes, but this victory would have destabilised the European security arrangement in such a degree that the US would be unwilling to further provoke a settled Russia with NATO shenanigans. The reason being, the US is far more interested in the Pacific to make such high risk moves in the European Theater.

Russia messing up in the Ukrainian war greatly diminishes Russia's deterrence. This means that a previous high-risk move for the US has now been transformed to a low-risk move which the US will.gladly make as it knows that Russia wont/can't retaliate due to it being bogged down in Ukraine. In simple words, Russia is now weak which gives the opportunity to US to make a strategic move towards Sweden.

Its all about what the risk-benefit ratio.

Before the war or with a successful Russian invasion: Very high risk move for the US considering that Russia is still strong and China would be laughing all the way to the bank if the US diverted major resources towards Europe

Russia is bogged down in this invasion (this is what happening now): Russia in a weak position, means that getting Sweden is low-risk move because Russia won't be able to retaliate. In the meantime, the US also gains a strong foothold in Sweden and eventually in Finland in the future.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
Be that as it may. What confidence do you have that if the war was waged in a manner that's befitting a proper strategy and leadership that Findland and Sweden's intent of joining NATO wouldn't materialize? I would argue that such overwhelming victory for Russia would have scared the living shit out of those two countries that it'd be stupid not to become part of a monstrous defensive alliance to ensure they're not next on the Russian menu.
I wanna chime in my opinion on whether Putin caused Finland and/or Sweden to join NATO because of the war on Ukraine. I think its irrelevant, the reason why Finland or Sweden haven't joined NATO before is because before they are used as leverages against Russia in negotiations.

Both countries already have extensive partnership in the field of military with NATO and US, them joining NATO is simply just applying a fresh coat of paint on their partnership, the primary benefit of this is politics, making the relation more official and legitimate to both sides of the population.

Honestly, I don't mind them joining at all, they wanna be another lapdog to the US, trash their security and military sovereignty, then they can go ahead. There's a consequence to all that escalations, if they are not careful and cornered Russia completely, then the unthinkable will happen and all of us will become casualties to it.
 
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