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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Has this been linked or posted here before? If so pardon for reposting this opinion piece from some of the foremost intellectual giants in American Foreign policy academic circles and foremost geopolitical magazine, Foreign Policy. Not to mention that these geniuses are the master teachers of @Sleepystudent and his many iterations, the latest of which is @Yukiolweipqled51 who recently opined their latest take on the hapless East and the "no chance" China.

China Is a Declining Power—and That’s the Problem. The United States needs to prepare for a major war, not because its rival is rising but because of the opposite.​

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SEPTEMBER 24, 2021, 4:16 PM

Why do great powers fight great wars? The conventional answer is a story of rising challengers and declining hegemons. An ascendant power, which chafes at the rules of the existing order, gains ground on an established power—the country that made those rules. Tensions multiply; tests of strength ensue. The outcome is a spiral of fear and hostility leading, almost inevitably, to conflict. “The growth of the power of Athens, and the alarm which this inspired in Sparta, made war inevitable,” the ancient historian Thucydides wrote—a truism now invoked, ad nauseum, in explaining the U.S.-China rivalry.

The idea of a Thucydides Trap, popularized by Harvard political scientist Graham Allison, holds that the danger of war will skyrocket as a surging China overtakes a sagging America. Even Chinese President Xi Jinping has endorsed the concept arguing Washington must make room for Beijing. As tensions between the United States and China escalate, the belief that the fundamental cause of friction is a looming “power transition”—the replacement of one hegemon by another—has become canonical.

The only problem with this familiar formula is that it’s wrong.

The Thucydides Trap doesn’t really explain what caused the Peloponnesian War. It doesn’t capture the dynamics that have often driven revisionist powers—whether that is Germany in 1914 or Japan in 1941—to start some of history’s most devastating conflicts. And it doesn’t explain why war is a very real possibility in U.S.-China relations today because it fundamentally misdiagnoses where China now finds itself on its arc of development—the point at which its relative power is peaking and will soon start to fade.

There’s indeed a deadly trap that could ensnare the United States and China. But it’s not the product of a power transition the Thucydidean cliché says it is. It’s best thought of instead as a “peaking power trap.” And if history is any guide, it’s China’s—not the United States’—impending decline that could cause it to snap shut.

There is an entire swath of literature, known as “power transition theory,” which holds that great-power war typically occurs at the intersection of one hegemon’s rise and another’s decline. This is the body of work underpinning the Thucydides Trap, and there is, admittedly, an elemental truth to the idea. The rise of new powers is invariably destabilizing. In the runup to the Peloponnesian War in the 5th century B.C., Athens would not have seemed so menacing to Sparta had it not built a vast empire and become a naval superpower. Washington and Beijing would not be locked in rivalry if China was still poor and weak. Rising powers do expand their influence in ways that threaten reigning powers.

But the calculus that produces war—particularly the calculus that pushes revisionist powers, countries seeking to shake up the existing system, to lash out violently—is more complex. A country whose relative wealth and power are growing will surely become more assertive and ambitious. All things equal, it will seek greater global influence and prestige. But if its position is steadily improving, it should postpone a deadly showdown with the reigning hegemon until it has become even stronger. Such a country should follow the dictum former Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping laid down for a rising China after the Cold War: It should hide its capabilities and bide its time.

Now imagine a different scenario. A dissatisfied state has been building its power and expanding its geopolitical horizons. But then the country peaks, perhaps because its economy slows, perhaps because its own assertiveness provokes a coalition of determined rivals, or perhaps because both of these things happen at once. The future starts to look quite forbidding; a sense of imminent danger starts to replace a feeling of limitless possibility. In these circumstances, a revisionist power may act boldly, even aggressively, to grab what it can before it is too late. The most dangerous trajectory in world politics is a long rise followed by the prospect of a sharp decline.

As we show in our forthcoming book, Danger Zone: The Coming Conflict with China, this scenario is more common than you might think. Historian Donald Kagan showed, for instance, that Athens started acting more belligerently in the years before the Peloponnesian War because it feared adverse shifts in the balance of naval power—in other words, because it was on the verge of losing influence vis-à-vis Sparta. We see the same thing in more recent cases as well.

Over the past 150 years, peaking powers—great powers that had been growing dramatically faster than the world average and then suffered a severe, prolonged slowdown—usually don’t fade away quietly. Rather, they become brash and aggressive. They suppress dissent at home and try to regain economic momentum by creating exclusive spheres of influence abroad. They pour money into their militaries and use force to expand their influence. This behavior commonly provokes great-power tensions. In some cases, it touches disastrous wars.

This shouldn’t be surprising. Eras of rapid growth supercharge a country’s ambitions, raise its people’s expectations, and make its rivals nervous. During a sustained economic boom, businesses enjoy rising profits and citizens get used to living large. The country becomes a bigger player on the global stage. Then stagnation strikes.

Slowing growth makes it harder for leaders to keep the public happy. Economic underperformance weakens the country against its rivals. Fearing upheaval, leaders crack down on dissent. They maneuver desperately to keep geopolitical enemies at bay. Expansion seems like a solution—a way of grabbing economic resources and markets, making nationalism a crutch for a wounded regime, and beating back foreign threats.


Many countries have followed this path. When the United States’ long post-Civil War economic surge ended, Washington violently suppressed strikes and unrest at home, built a powerful blue-water Navy, and engaged in a fit of belligerence and imperial expansion during the 1890s. After a fast-rising imperial Russia fell into a deep slump at the turn of the 20th century, the tsarist government cracked down hard while also enlarging its military, seeking colonial gains in East Asia and sending around 170,000 soldiers to occupy Manchuria. These moves backfired spectacularly: They antagonized Japan, which beat Russia in the first great-power war of the 20th century.

A century later, Russia became aggressive under similar circumstances. Facing a severe, post-2008 economic slowdown, Russian President Vladimir Putin invaded two neighboring countries, sought to create a new Eurasian economic bloc, staked Moscow’s claim to a resource-rich Arctic, and steered Russia deeper into dictatorship. Even democratic France engaged in anxious aggrandizement after the end of its postwar economic expansion in the 1970s. It tried to rebuild its old sphere of influence in Africa, deploying 14,000 troops to its former colonies and undertaking a dozen military interventions over the next two decades.

All of these cases were complicated, yet the pattern is clear. If a rapid rise gives countries the means to act boldly, the fear of decline serves up a powerful motive for rasher, more urgent expansion. The same thing often happens when fast-rising powers cause their own containment by a hostile coalition. In fact, some of history’s most gruesome wars have come when revisionist powers concluded their path to glory was about to be blocked.


Imperial Germany and Japan are textbook examples.Germany’s rivalry with Britain in the late 19th and early 20th centuries is often considered an analogue to U.S.-China competition: In both cases, an autocratic challenger threatened a liberal hegemon. But the more sobering parallel is this: War came when a cornered Germany grasped it would not zip past its rivals without a fight.

For decades after unification in 1871, Germany soared. Its factories spewed out iron and steel, erasing Britain’s economic lead. Berlin built Europe’s finest army and battleships that threatened British supremacy at sea. By the early 1900s, Germany was a European heavyweight seeking an enormous sphere of influence—a Mitteleuropa, or Middle Europe—on the continent. It was also pursuing, under then-Kaiser Wilhelm II, a “world policy” aimed at securing colonies and global power.

But during the prelude to war, the kaiser and his aides didn’t feel confident. Germany’s brash behavior caused its encirclement by hostile powers. London, Paris, and St. Petersburg, Russia, formed a “Triple Entente” to block German expansion. By 1914, time was running short. Germany was losing ground economically to a fast-growing Russia; London and France were pursuing economic containment by blocking its access to oil and iron ore. Berlin’s key ally, Austria-Hungary, was being torn apart by ethnic tensions. At home, Germany’s autocratic political system was in trouble.


Part 1

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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Has this been linked or posted here before? If so pardon for reposting this opinion piece from some of the foremost intellectual giants in American Foreign policy academic circles and foremost geopolitical magazine, Foreign Policy. Not to mention that these geniuses are the master teachers of @Sleepystudent and his many iterations, the latest of which is @Yukiolweipqled51 who recently opined their latest take on the hapless East and the "no chance" China.

China Is a Declining Power—and That’s the Problem. The United States needs to prepare for a major war, not because its rival is rising but because of the opposite.​

By
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
SEPTEMBER 24, 2021, 4:16 PM

Why do great powers fight great wars? The conventional answer is a story of rising challengers and declining hegemons. An ascendant power, which chafes at the rules of the existing order, gains ground on an established power—the country that made those rules. Tensions multiply; tests of strength ensue. The outcome is a spiral of fear and hostility leading, almost inevitably, to conflict. “The growth of the power of Athens, and the alarm which this inspired in Sparta, made war inevitable,” the ancient historian Thucydides wrote—a truism now invoked, ad nauseum, in explaining the U.S.-China rivalry.

The idea of a Thucydides Trap, popularized by Harvard political scientist Graham Allison, holds that the danger of war will skyrocket as a surging China overtakes a sagging America. Even Chinese President Xi Jinping has endorsed the concept arguing Washington must make room for Beijing. As tensions between the United States and China escalate, the belief that the fundamental cause of friction is a looming “power transition”—the replacement of one hegemon by another—has become canonical.

The only problem with this familiar formula is that it’s wrong.

The Thucydides Trap doesn’t really explain what caused the Peloponnesian War. It doesn’t capture the dynamics that have often driven revisionist powers—whether that is Germany in 1914 or Japan in 1941—to start some of history’s most devastating conflicts. And it doesn’t explain why war is a very real possibility in U.S.-China relations today because it fundamentally misdiagnoses where China now finds itself on its arc of development—the point at which its relative power is peaking and will soon start to fade.

There’s indeed a deadly trap that could ensnare the United States and China. But it’s not the product of a power transition the Thucydidean cliché says it is. It’s best thought of instead as a “peaking power trap.” And if history is any guide, it’s China’s—not the United States’—impending decline that could cause it to snap shut.

There is an entire swath of literature, known as “power transition theory,” which holds that great-power war typically occurs at the intersection of one hegemon’s rise and another’s decline. This is the body of work underpinning the Thucydides Trap, and there is, admittedly, an elemental truth to the idea. The rise of new powers is invariably destabilizing. In the runup to the Peloponnesian War in the 5th century B.C., Athens would not have seemed so menacing to Sparta had it not built a vast empire and become a naval superpower. Washington and Beijing would not be locked in rivalry if China was still poor and weak. Rising powers do expand their influence in ways that threaten reigning powers.

But the calculus that produces war—particularly the calculus that pushes revisionist powers, countries seeking to shake up the existing system, to lash out violently—is more complex. A country whose relative wealth and power are growing will surely become more assertive and ambitious. All things equal, it will seek greater global influence and prestige. But if its position is steadily improving, it should postpone a deadly showdown with the reigning hegemon until it has become even stronger. Such a country should follow the dictum former Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping laid down for a rising China after the Cold War: It should hide its capabilities and bide its time.

By same author…

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is your $300,000 American prosperous society acting right now @Hendrik_2000 the man shot an American of Chinese descent 22 times because he thought $300,000 was too much for him eh..or how about the Amazon employees in Illinois (the home state of Obama and Lincoln) where a former IRAQI WAR VETERAN was essentially forced to work despite the hurricane warning and subsequently died from the collapse of the warehouse from the said hurricane like weather.



Come on you cite couple unrelated event Disaster and crime happened all the time does it has anything to do with wealth generation?

Most American have 401k and House Those asset appreciate over the time. It is true that millennial does not have the same opportunity like their parents does

here is a typical suburb life in US

Now here is typical apartment living in China
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Come on you cite couple unrelated event Disaster and crime happened all the time does it has anything to do with wealth generation?

Most American have 401k and House Those asset appreciate over the time. It is true that millennial does not have the same opportunity like their parents does

here is a typical suburb life in US

Now here is typical apartment living in China
I thought you're a bright dude, but this post just shows how untrue that is. You're comparing China who is still technically a developing country against the still number 1 superpower country in the world with a GDP per capita 5x of China? And also, if you're going to demand China to shut down every American named companies to satiate your appetite for destruction wouldn't that very action create a much more difficult living conditions for the "average" Chinese citizens you have been blabbering to care about? Or is your concern really all about "ME, ME" FIRST attitude to heck with everything else, and to top it all off, you're not even Chinese living in China. Lol
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I thought you're a bright dude, but this post just shows how untrue that is. You're comparing China who is still technically a developing country against the still number 1 superpower country in the world with a GDP per capita 5x of China? And also, if you're going to demand China to shut down every American named companies to satiate your appetite for destruction wouldn't that very action create a much more difficult living conditions for the "average" Chinese citizens you have been blabbering to care about? Or is your concern really all about "ME, ME" FIRST attitude to heck with everything else, and to top it all off, you're not even Chinese living in China. Lol
He's not at all a bright dude; his analysis is usually terrible. He's only good at posting news articles. Recently, he's been driven mad into slandering China, which will make him as successful as every common garden variety Gordon Chang follower. It's disingenuous to make the housing comparison because:

1. China started way lower than the US and is moving up faster; he's projecting his own impatience as China's failures. "Has China surpassed the US yet? How about now? I checked yesterday and then I checked again today! If it still hasn't happened, it's failure! It will never happen!"

2. He's failing to note that China and the US have the same land mass roughly but there are 4x more Chinese than Americans so the challenges to giving the average Chinese as much living space as the average American are much more profound, both economically and technologically.

3. He's comparing Shanghai (major metropolis) housing to Texan (Woodlands is a long drive north of Houston known for cheap land) housing but you'd basically get the same false conclusion if you compared Manhattan housing to Texan housing. I could buy a big comfy house in the Woodlands for the price of a bathroom in NYC or a parking spot in Los Angeles.

Like I said, absolutely nothing about that says "bright dude" to me.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
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It is a good symbolic speech by Mun Jae-In. But there is nothing new really.

All parties except US have openly made promises of formally finish the war in the past, such as joint declarations in 2007 and 2018 between NK and SK. The very blocking issue is article 4.6 of the cease fire agreement that "all foreign troops withdraw from the peninsular" as the precondition for permanent peace. So far NK has insisted on this term, which I believe China also want. For NK and China to officially finish the war without US troop pulling out is a surrender without anything in return. I don't see why NK would agree with that.

So I see it may be just another empty hope this time again.
 
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