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coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
Nobody is talking about giving up aksai chin. My understanding is that some of the mountains China took over in the last couple of years can now be patrolled jointly. That's not a big loss, it's not even a return to the status quo before the clashes. And China has extracted some concessions in return

Just a compromise ceasefire will ensure that the hatred for China in India will not escalate. I wouldn't be in favour of giving up any core territory like South tibet. But if you draw the precise border a few kilometres further north or South doesn't really matter. But having India potentially more engaged in brics and sco makes them much more attractive than just an anti American alliance
Lmao, you think giving away the territories marked 1 and 2 on the map I posted previously is ok but South Tibet is not? South Tibet is already lost, even though China and a lot of us don't want to admit it. The territories China gave back won't be jointly patrolled, it will only be patrolled by the Indians, i.e., they got that land from China. Indian FM already said the situation will return to pre-2020.

It's nice to comfort ourselves and believe that China won some sort of concessions, but is just keeping it secret and India's FM is just lying. In fact the deal is so good for China, we have to censor discussions on Chinese social media and news sites. If we follow this logic, how are we any different than the Jai Hinds and Pinoys we often see on the internet who boast about nonexistent victories?
 

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Index

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lmao, you think giving away the territories marked 1 and 2 on the map I posted previously is ok but South Tibet is not? South Tibet is already lost, even though China and a lot of us don't want to admit it. The territories China gave back won't be jointly patrolled, it will only be patrolled by the Indians
That seems like a ridiculous assumption to make? If youre not gonna believe the statement that claims they'll be jointly patrolled, then you can just as well assume that in reality only China will patrol them. That's an equally assumptive and out of the field statement.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
That seems like a ridiculous assumption to make? If youre not gonna believe the statement that claims they'll be jointly patrolled, then you can just as well assume that in reality only China will patrol them. That's an equally assumptive and out of the field statement.
Uh, China is already patrolling on areas 1 and 2, referred to by the Indians as Depsang Plains and Demchok. If we follow your logic, literally nothing changed in this deal.

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New Delhi: India and China have agreed to resume patrolling to the “agreed perceived Line of Actual Control,” including in Depsang Plains and Demchok, though there is unlikely to be any immediate thinning down of troops other than those pulled back in the winter as is the norm, ThePrint has learnt.

Take a look on the map at what India refers to the “agreed perceived Line of Actual Control”, it is in blue behind areas 1 and 2. Joint patrol or no joint patrol, fact of the matter is China gave away areas 1 and 2 in this deal according to the Indian side. This is India's demand after 2020, the fact it took China over four years to agree to India's demand says something about what this deal is about.

The map I attached is made by a very knowledgeable Chinese blogger (see watermark), he makes amazing content, even the Indian media steal his maps.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Guys let me put it out there that I am an Indian but I am a Marxist Leninist first and foremost and it is only the CPC that I abide by. I understand the frustration over the compromise as I am unhappy too. But I would like to draw some attention to Mao's "on contradictions". Even though i am a Dengist, the chairman did write some extremely good theory that is still relevant for today's China. This is a principled compromise which in my understanding will only help China in the long term. Yes, it is difficult to trust India, I understand that fully. But a completely hostile India is much more dangerous for China in the long run. No matter how far behind India is in terms of overall social development, it still is a huge market with a big population with sizable disposable income. The middle to upper middle class in India alone is larger than many major European countries combined. So building any trust process that helps to not completely cutoff that market is important for Chinese industry when it faces a shrinking market in the west.

Secondly, I am fully sympathetic to Pakistan, but let's face reality. Pakistan is not a counter to India by any means. Unless the Pakistani economy starts competing with India in any reasonable way (which I really don't see happening), all military comparisons are pointless. The way China thinks (or rather doesn't) about India, is exactly how India treats Pakistan these days. So it is better to let go of those illusions and deal with the India question directly, which I think the CPC is doing.

The issue is not the Indian people but the regime. I have never insulted the Indian people or Hinduism even once, you can check my record. I acknowledge the great contributions of Indians to science such as Chandresekar and Raman.

Hinduism is not the problem. India is not the problem. The fascist regime is the problem. The reprehensible behavior of some Indians is due to the regime.

China is not in the business of regime change, but we need to defend ourselves against the machinations of the regime. Indians must collectively want liberation. It must be very difficult to believe in science and truth in a society filled with lies. But it is darkest before dawn. We know because we've been there too.
 

canonicalsadhu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Guys let me put it out there that I am an Indian but I am a Marxist Leninist first and foremost and it is only the CPC that I abide by. I understand the frustration over the compromise as I am unhappy too. But I would like to draw some attention to Mao's "on contradictions". Even though i am a Dengist, the chairman did write some extremely good theory that is still relevant for today's China. This is a principled compromise which in my understanding will only help China in the long term. Yes, it is difficult to trust India, I understand that fully. But a completely hostile India is much more dangerous for China in the long run. No matter how far behind India is in terms of overall social development, it still is a huge market with a big population with sizable disposable income. The middle to upper middle class in India alone is larger than many major European countries combined. So building any trust process that helps to not completely cutoff that market is important for Chinese industry when it faces a shrinking market in the west.

Secondly, I am fully sympathetic to Pakistan, but let's face reality. Pakistan is not a counter to India by any means. Unless the Pakistani economy starts competing with India in any reasonable way (which I really don't see happening), all military comparisons are pointless. The way China thinks (or rather doesn't) about India, is exactly how India treats Pakistan these days. So it is better to let go of those illusions and deal with the India question directly, which I think the CPC is doing.
China has no shortage of antagonistic nations... US, Canada, the 27 countries of the EU, UK, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Australia. Not China's fault, of course, as these are all poodles of the US, but it is foolish to add new enemies like India, a country of 1.4B people, to the list even if again the nature of hostility is not China's fault. Better compromise and reduce the list of adversaries because China has only one real enemy - the US. The US is an existential threat to China, who will not rest until China is permanently crippled economically, technologically, and militarily. The rest of countries are minor nuances who are either coerced/emboldened by the US on their Sinophobia or jealous of China's success and are lashing out. These are all manageable long-term. But China needs to be laser-focused on dealing with the US - all else matters very little.
 

Leningradpro

New Member
Registered Member
The issue is not the Indian people but the regime. I have never insulted the Indian people or Hinduism even once, you can check my record. I acknowledge the great contributions of Indians to science such as Chandresekar and Raman.

Hinduism is not the problem. India is not the problem. The fascist regime is the problem. The reprehensible behavior of some Indians is due to the regime.

China is not in the business of regime change, but we need to defend ourselves against the machinations of the regime. Indians must collectively want liberation. It must be very difficult to believe in science and truth in a society filled with lies. But it is darkest before dawn. We know because we've been there too.
I will be the first to disagree with you here ;). Indian people and Hinduism are the problem. They led to the creation of this fascist state. But I don't think that the the current fascist regime is the only problem. All the other liberal regimes that can replace this would be more or less equally problematic towards China.

I would love to see a truly People's Republic in India as well. But let us be real. The Soviet Union happened in the aftermath of the first world world war. The PRC happened in the aftermath of the hundred years of humiliation and the second world war. Whereas the material conditions of present day India show no way forward to such a communist takeover of India. So China has got to deal with this problematic neighbour no matter what. And there the pragmatism of the CPC is clearly on display.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Lmao, you think giving away the territories marked 1 and 2 on the map I posted previously is ok but South Tibet is not? South Tibet is already lost, even though China and a lot of us don't want to admit it. The territories China gave back won't be jointly patrolled, it will only be patrolled by the Indians, i.e., they got that land from China. Indian FM already said the situation will return to pre-2020.

It's nice to comfort ourselves and believe that China won some sort of concessions, but is just keeping it secret and India's FM is just lying. In fact the deal is so good for China, we have to censor discussions on Chinese social media and news sites. If we follow this logic, how are we any different than the Jai Hinds and Pinoys we often see on the internet who boast about nonexistent victories?
Do you believe India has the strength to force China into an unfavorable agreement?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I will be the first to disagree with you here ;). Indian people and Hinduism are the problem. They led to the creation of this fascist state. But I don't think that the the current fascist regime is the only problem. All the other liberal regimes that can replace this would be more or less equally problematic towards China.

I would love to see a truly People's Republic in India as well. But let us be real. The Soviet Union happened in the aftermath of the first world world war. The PRC happened in the aftermath of the hundred years of humiliation and the second world war. Whereas the material conditions of present day India show no way forward to such a communist takeover of India. So China has got to deal with this problematic neighbour no matter what. And there the pragmatism of the CPC is clearly on display.

I disagree on the material conditions part. India = late Qing right now. Being militarily humiliated is the way to create the material conditions for a great awakening.
 

Ringsword

Junior Member
Registered Member
I doubt anyone can remember something of that sort because that didn't happen, though I suppose on this forum, historical facts shouldn't get in the way of the repetitive rants about India that are seemingly every second post on certain threads. "Compensation" was a non-starter and if that had actually been demanded in the Deng era, or in any time period since 1949, there would likely still be no diplomatic or trade relations between China and the likes of Britain and France.

The historical fact that the People's Republic was able to wipe the slate clean of colonial vestiges without compensation is one of the core achievements of the new state and precisely the sina qua non that allowed all of China's re-engagement with the West to be done on its own terms in the Deng era.

Aron Shai's "The Fate of British and French Firms in China, 1949-54: Imperialism Imprisoned" concluded:


The increasing tendency by some members with indulging in chauvinistic monologues and near eugenicist tirades - often just short of bringing out the calipers at times - whenever India comes up as a topic seems to have made some members lose track of some of the actual reasons for China's comparative success over India, given their relatively level initial socio-economic starting positions in the 1950s.

As Shai's work notes:


The key difference between China and India is that China successfully broke free from external colonial ties and established a high level of state sovereignty. This allowed a future relationship with the West set on its own terms and, at the time, enabled the Chinese government to exert significant pressure on all colonial business holdings within China by increasing their operational costs, such as mandating actual living wages for their Chinese employees. As a result, foreign businesses in China not only struggled to turn a profit but began bleeding money, with the major multinationals literally bringing in revenue from other regions to pay off its finances in China.

Although these companies appealed to their home governments for support, the new Chinese state, having established true autonomy, rendered London and Paris powerless to intervene. Ultimately, these businesses were compelled to settle with China in order to exit the market, a process that can be described by Shai as the uniquely Chinese strategy of "imperialism imprisoned." This consensual exit precluded any future attempts by these foreign businesses or their governments to return to China with demands or expectations when the country eventually reopened.

This marked a significant departure for modern China from its own Qing era, during which the country was forced to bear the costs of imperialist conflicts against itself, such as the Opium Wars payments and the Boxer indemnity. For likely the first significant time in its history, the West was denied the opportunity to make its victims pay for the military expenditures incurred in subjugating them. This distinguishes modern China from historical cases like France's demand that Haiti repay "damages" for the Haitian Revolution to punish history's first black revolution, which ultimately bankrupted Haiti and contributed to its ongoing poverty.

This was achieved through China's total eradication of the centuries old colonial vested interests through its treatment of foreign capital in the 1950s and this hard reset of colonial economic relations and obligations was what allowed China to engage the West on a more equal terms when China began its Opening Up in the Deng era. This is one of the actual significant contributing factors that made modern China a success story without real parallels within the Global South today and it should be properly appreciated.
If this is true then I stand corrected and happily so-it was a long time ago and I was quite young and no internet to asssess what
i had read in my local newspapers /Time/Newsweek magazine.
 
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Ringsword

Junior Member
Registered Member
See, West failed when they praised. That was taken as a sign of weakness. Treat Indian social structure as wolves in a wolf pack, there will only be dominance and submission. If you are not alpha you are the prey.
Not wolves-anoble animal but more like mangey indian feral street dogs-can be dangerous especially to the unaware.
 
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