Miscellaneous News

sheogorath said:

This position completely ignores the history of the Third World and how it is the west responsibility the state it is in. This is basically going "poor people are poor because they want to" and completely ignore the multitude of factors that go into poor people being and staying poor.

How do we expect the Third World to achieve any of that if whenever they try to gain control of their resources and move forward, they get couped, invaded or rigged and subservient elites put into place every single time since the dawn of the colonial era?.

How exactly are they supposed to succesfully break away from this cycle without the help of other, bigger countries?. Specially smaller countries that don't have the history, resource and cultural depth that its afforded by China size and long history, before you try to bring it up as an example, and even China didn't do it alone, either.

Would have China be able to break away from this cycle without the help of USSR?. Should have Stalin told Mao "is not our responsibility to bail out countries"?

Its hypocritical and delusional to demand such from the Third World, while also expecting to prioritize deaings with China and not expect them to get subverted by Western interests if you don't provide the mechanism nor the efforts for that not to happen.

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you have some valid points but the path to the end goal you envision is not a single one.

China goes the BRI way, it captures some domestic business elite, and then that domestic business elite buys off domestic political elite. Soo, China ain't so unconcerned about the global south as you think it is

That means that China may throw 100 baits but if only 10 catch something, thats 10 more than what it had before. You are complaining "what about the rest 90" which is valid, but China isn't some all powerful, all knowing entity. Don't forget it is still a developing country which has multiple internal issues and external issues that it has to resolve first

So based on all that, it is doing a very good and admirable job. Finally don't forget, you can criticise China all you want, but know this:

If China fails, that's it for the global south. Which other entity would be able to mount a similar challenge? That would be centuries and millennia of further Western domination. So, before you chest-thumb and point fingers, think about this. rather do 1 right and 0 wrong than 1000 right and 1 wrong because when you come at the king, you best not make any mistakes or you are dead.

Overbom said:

bring back the funny thread

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1840054098151743586

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He must think he's playing poker where you lose all the cards in your hand to win. Seriously, Iran is the new India of the middle east.

sheogorath said:

Anyway, I'd like to apologize for coming off agressive and if I have offended anyone. It just disheartening to see the situation how no one seems to care enough to do anything about it when you have hopes that the transition out of US hegemony could improve things.

I think we all have had enough of the callous attitude of the anglos and we shouldn't be replicating it.

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You are quite out of character today. China's success in dealing with the West, going from impoverished third world country to a world leader in tech that the US would only dare confront with all Western allies on board and STILL find itself in a losing position, comes down to one very stark difference from all other would-be challengers including Russia and the USSR and it's that we never over-extend ourselves and get into conflicts without certainty that we can win. This has not only preserved our energy but it has caused the US to pass on us as a serious threat for decades. We are much stronger now and can afford to push farther, do more, but we are NOT an overmatch for the combined West in a middle-eastern conflict. We can't be the heros for the global south today because we're just not strong enough yet. The muslim fighter groups made the mistake of attacking Israel before they were ready, before they were united; it is not on us to risk our nation to save them from their deadly miscalculation. If China was at the point where our military can be sent on an operation to destroy all Israeli forces and no one would dare do anything to us (just like the US could with it invaded Iraq/Afghanistan) then maybe we can, but the preservation of China's rise is our priority and we cannot do anything to jeopardize it. "Keep your head down and work," has always served us well and we will need it more for the next few decades. We may be at peer status with the West but that doesn't mean it's time to go all in; smart gamblers only make sure bets and we don't fight until we are sure we will win.

sheogorath said:

But then again, the way I've seem some pro-China people talk about the Arab world isn't all that different from Anglos in the bigotry and vitriol, maybe I am expecting too much and turns out the multipolar world order lead by China will be just more of the same since the Anglos will still be left to do what they please with the rest of us.

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Some "pro-China people", I hope you don't conflate the language of some posters here and thought it represent all of us (I am quite disgusted by some of those myself). For what its worth if you can follow Chinese social media you may find most people are sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, myself included.

However China is definitely not going to act as world police, the multipolar world has no leader by definition. In the end one must fight their own war, if the Arab world cannot band together and show some strength and backbone then China can do nothing but watch sadly on the side line

Overbom said:

China goes the BRI way, it captures some domestic business elite, and then that domestic business elite buys off domestic political elite. Soo, China ain't so unconcerned about the global south as you think it is

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Thats great but the problem is what happens when the West comes in and coups the elite you nourished and replaces it with its own?.

Thats were I think non-interventionism is a fool's errand unless you don't mind wasting resources.

Overbom said:

You are complaining "what about the rest 90" which is valid, but China isn't some all powerful, all knowing entity.

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Is not about that though, but about if you are going to play the west's game, which so far China has made superb job at beating them at their own game, at some point you can't half ass it.

A big chunk of the US successes and hegemony was built on subverting other's interests while also preventing their owns from being subverted. While China's position is comendable and it is a breath of fresh air to be willing to respects other countries sovereignty like that, you -will- have to get your hands dirty at some point as long as the West and the US exists in their current form.

Overbom said:

Don't forget it is still a developing country which has multiple internal issues and external issues that it has to resolve first

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Thats a fair point, and it is true. Its just hard not be impressed how far China has come in just a few decades.

Overbom said:

If China fails, that's it for the global south. Which other entity would be able to mount a similar challenge? That would be centuries and millennia of further Western domination. So, before you chest-thumb and point fingers, think about this. rather do 1 right and 0 wrong than 1000 right and 1 wrong because when you come at the king, you best not make any mistakes or you are dead.

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Thats true, but at some point you or some issue it is necesary to make a stand, don't you think?. And its true even from a purely self interested, materialistic point of view: what good does the BRI investment does if you are not as willing as to defend them as the West does for theirs?.

But I'll concede that maybe China considers is still not strong enough to mount such a challenge successfully, it'd still be nice to see them mount a challenge where they can.

TK3600 said:

You cannot measure 1 to 1 loss. Israel have more money, less people.

1 to 1 financial loss is a win for Israel
1 to 1 manpower loss is a lose for Israel

Israel when it comes to available combatants, Israel really has to do a 10 to 1 casualty ratio minimum to consider it a win.

Conversely Israel lost much more money than their opponents, but I won't call it a win for the resistence group either.

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Why is everybody trying to cope with Israel killing so many more of their enemies than they are killing Israelis and pretending that Israel isn't winning? Just cus you hate Israel? Me too but reality is reality. Money's not even a real thing; it's artificial. America will bankroll everything Israel needs then print the extra money to send that inflation through the world. The people who died fighing Israel did not sacrifice their lives to waste Israel's money, ok? They are not happy with that. With all the civilians that Israel killed I honestly think it's well over a 10-1 ratio in favor of Israel. How can it not be when every Israeli killed is a soldier taken out by guerillas (who probably sacrificed a few of their brothers to get it) while Palestinians and Lebanese die in the hundreds as Israel drops bombs on hospitals and stabs/shoots every child they see on the street?

Israel is an evil far too great for any force in that area. Only China can end Israel with a beast mode full military strike lasting one night only leaving Israel in total shambles and then dare anybody to do anything about it. But if that day comes, I presume it will have come because China has grown so strong that even Western European countries will only say Israel deserved it and never draw China's ire. And it will also have to depend on Israel's stupidity because we Chinese never strike people when they are in submission.

sheogorath said:

People also thought Israel wouldn't piss off Russia by openly supporting Ukraine and here we are. Your underestimating what a country run by desperate crazies is capable of.

We have seen them commit almost every atrocity you can think of on video and pictures, and that hasn't disuaded them. They have no incentive to stop escalating things, and while China keeps sticking to doing jackshit, its just a matter of time before they compromise Chinese products and interests to further their own goals.

Which is why I find this argument of "Not China's problem/interests" dumb and shortsighted, specially while bragging about your comercial relationships with them as if it is a good thing.

Hell, even from outside the whole genocide and moral aspect of it all, mantaining deals with Israel and letting them run amock is bad idea for Chinese interests.


Is he?.


My guy, the US warned Israel about not doing a ground invasion on Gaza because it wouldn't be quick and easy. You are SERIOUSLY overstimating the rationality of the Israeli government and society at this point in time.

A country that has a doctrine of killing its own population over letting them be kidnapped on top of a doctrine of threatening to nuke its own allies if they let it fall.

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I think you should calm down a bit. Firstly, genocidal intent does not make genocidal capability. If Israel is to keep conducting week long bombing campaigns with 1000s of munitions and 100s of deaths per week, causing low 10 000s of civilian deaths over a year, then we have many years, even decades, to shape up the tens of millions strong Arabs in the region for a counteroffensive.

Secondly, the anti-US campaign has global scope, right now, you can see that most of China's attention rests on the Russian front. The war there is not just about fertile land and damaging NATO. It's about shaping up Russia as a 2nd global agent that can provide it's own independent arms, resources and economic support to other countries, not relying everything on China itself.

We have seen the ineffectiveness of Iran in implementing China's economic development plans, perhaps the leadership needs a reshuffle, perhaps the middle east is better entrusted with Russia as a middleman. Only Beijing has the answers, but I'm certain that they think to work towards the best scenario for the people on the ground, as they have a history for.

sheogorath said:

Maybe when the first Huawei blows up at the hands of a Chinese kid, we'll see if its not China's problem, then.

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ISIS/ETIM backed by US, they too thought they could knife and shoot at Chinese civilians. They soon learned their place in life. Unchallenged way of life has made China soft, so when there's a great power mismatch, we would rather straitjacket up the offenders and reeducate them. But take away that veil of civility and we are at heart still East Asians. The best engineers, organizers, and inventors in the world, who have no qualms about putting those skills on systematic extermination, devising new tortures and human experimentation, if we feel pressured to do so. Just consult a history book for examples.

Don't forget that.

Eventine said:

It's not about sucking up to the West. It's more about not entangling yourself with dead weights. Transactional relations with Iran (e.g. oil for investment) are fine. But symbolic gestures around "shared destiny" or "brotherhood" could drag you into conflicts of which you have little understanding, and which could prove to be costly, as the US has learned in its various attempts at backing failed states (e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan).

China has historically avoided such entanglements by being transactional. Recently, however, it has been more forward with "no limits friendships" and various attempts at pulling together counter-Western alliances in response to Western containment efforts. It is natural to seek friends when your enemies are trying to actively isolate you, but just like in real life, making "bad friends" just because you're feeling vulnerable and don't want to be alone, isn't going to make things better.

I think China generally overestimated Iran's capabilities, and this is clear from reading this board - the cognitive dissonance in the last month or two as Iran's strategic environment collapsed around it and we realized just how deep Western power goes, was honestly insane to watch. If Chinese leadership knew that Iran was so thoroughly infiltrated, I question whether they would've even bothered with bringing it into the SCO and BRICS. Maybe they still would have, on a purely transactional basis, but its value certainly wouldn't have been played up as it was here.

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On the other hand, you had the case of the Houthis, who resisted 5 years of total war and were humiliating the Saudis with 1980s Tochkas from the DPR Yemen days penetrating Patriot systems and taking out bases with 50+ Saudi soldiers.

It was thought that since the Houthis were humiliating Saudi Arabia, usually considered a strong country, and if Iran was behind the Houthis, what could Iran do?

Turns out, not much. But how would anyone have known that Iran was weaker than Yemen of all countries?

enroger said:

Some "pro-China people", I hope you don't conflate the language of some posters here and thought it represent all of us. For what its worth if you can follow Chinese social media you may find most people are sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, myself included.

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I do follow quite a few of them. Yes, I mean the language at times in the forums.

enroger said:

f the Arab world cannot band together and show some strength and backbone then China can do nothing but watch sadly on the side line

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Thats part of the issue as a big chunk of the arab leadership has been compromised over years of coups, bribes and so on, so it is why I make an argument for a third party to step up. Arab populations have rised against them, just to be gunned down by the western backed elites, so this is why I ask how you break the cycle without external support?

manqiangrexue said:

He must think he's playing poker where you lose all the cards in your hand to win. Seriously, Iran is the new India of the middle east.

You are quite out of character today. China's success in dealing with the West, going from impoverished third world country to a world leader in tech that the US would only dare confront with all Western allies on board and STILL find itself in a losing position, comes down to one very stark difference from all other would-be challengers including Russia and the USSR and it's that we never over-extend ourselves and get into conflicts without certainty that we can win. This has not only preserved our energy but it has caused the US to pass on us as a serious threat for decades. We are much stronger now and can afford to push farther, do more, but we are NOT an overmatch for the combined West in a middle-eastern conflict. We can't be the heros for the global south today because we're just not strong enough yet. The muslim fighter groups made the mistake of attacking Israel before they were ready, before they were united; it is not on us to risk our nation to save them from their deadly miscalculation. If China was at the point where our military can be sent on an operation to destroy all Israeli forces and no one would dare do anything to us (just like the US could with it invaded Iraq/Afghanistan) then maybe we can, but the preservation of China's rise is our priority and we cannot do anything to jeopardize it. "Keep your head down and work," has always served us well and we will need it more for the next few decades. We may be at peer status with the West but that doesn't mean it's time to go all in; smart gamblers only make sure bets and we don't fight until we are sure we will win.

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Fair points. My frustation stems from the fact that it would be nice to see some more assertiveness from Chinese diplomacy, something that makes a difference even within the existing framework.

But thats just me.

What the hell?

Jai Hind!

The rat-face in jail:

sheogorath said:

It should be if you are serious about assuming leadership of the global south, and so far what we are seeing is that the west will still be allowed to bomb the shit out of you and all it should be expected from China is some posturing.


Funny considering China is also doing a shit job at what it allegedly -can- do. No serious attempt at rallying the global south at the UN or ICJ, promote reforms or actually push the Arab countries it does have sway over to put up and stop gargling anglo balls.



Sure, though at least Russia for all their blunders in the war, at least they made good on their promise of going to war over Ukraine joining NATO.


Why should even China consider luring such a diseased society out of the US camp?. They don't see the chinese any more as humans than they see the palestinians, this is like trying to argue about luring Nazi Germany.


It will be next time it tries to claim any sort of leadership role in anything related to the third world.


At least for all the failures that lead to its demise, the USSR scared the west enough that would measure heavily about pulling shit like this on the regular and the open, even against its own population because they knew the soviets would have no qualms on filling the void and proping up actual opposition to them. Even China at some point, didn't either, even if sometimes it did at the behest of western interests, like Pol Pot.

No amount of soft power will get you that if you don't also act from time to time. Then again, even China doesn't seem too bothered about what's happening to its own citizens in western countries, the cusp of it being the whole Meng Wanzhou debacle.

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When did China claim leadership of the Global South? Show me an article from People’s Daily

The only ones are the US and Jai Hind.