Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

There seem to be three options on the market of single engine fighters with affordable maintenance:
the Korean T-50
the Sino-Pakistani JF-17
the Indian Tejas
All are within the same price range. Two of them operate F404 engines (like the Gripen that is off limits).
That could mean that the Swedish version of the F404 could be installed instead.
Engines are the most important issue for operating these devices. The F04, especially the Swedish variant, would be great.
China is still struggling with engine endurance and Russian engines are getting better at not being fuel guzzlers.
The empty aircrafts are all within the same weight range. The airframe needs to be as well easy to maintain and trainers such as the T-50 and the JF-17 are well suited for that task. I do think highly of the simplicity achieved by the Tejas in that regard.
Avionics could be a seperate contract because these have to be different from the equipment of a trainer aircraft and must be interoperational with other Argentine equipment.

Argentina does have options to make own contributions in avionics and engines during the lifetime of these aircrafts.
An Argentine effort in engines and avionics might benefit from ongoing work in Korea and Indonesia to create indigenious fighters by making a contribution capable of operation with both the KF-X and the T-50 (engines for example).

South Korea is a regional and an emerging great power. It would not be a bad idea to be on their good side. Unlike a purchase of Chinese aircrafts, this would not be taken as a political statement of alliance, while unaffected from BAE repercussions on availability. On the long run the build up of a blue water navy offers more cooperation opportunities to get hands on kit from one source. This hardware would make it capable of confronting the UK in a conflict. (confrontation does not equal invasion of UK territory for annexiation) In case of both conflicts, with Chile and the UK, air- and seaspace will be affected and interoperationability between both will enhance capabilities.
China is an emerging superpower and already a great power. Together with Pakistan they created a trainer favoured by many forumites as choice in the contest. Its bonus is of being a cheap to afford aircraft capable of interoperating with the vast array of international weapon imports Pakistan fields, similar to Argentina. The avionics have already been weaponized.
The Tejas does face a number of problems as a development project of India. This provides insecurities to delivery.

Click to expand...

JF-17 is not a trainer, I think you got confused with K-8 which is also a joint project between China and Pakistan.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MwRYum said:

Still, the Argentina has yet recover enough to put more money into its defense budget, right? If they can only afford to let the navy vessels rot away at pier, the Falklands will only remain a far away dream, just like the Chinese with the Diaoyu Islands, can only gripe about it but couldn't do anything solid to make Japan yield.

Unless...something like the "Call of Duty: Ghosts" came to reality and make the entire South America an unified , grade-one global superpower...

Just saying.

Click to expand...

For the British the islands are too expensive plus there is a lot of international pressure to negociate even in England there are voices to return them, in fact in the 1970s there were proposals to send the British inhabitants of the Malvinas to New Zealand or Australia.
The British Government also uses the Malvinas/Falklands as a political scapegoat, so in my opinion is still difficult to predict the future.

Will South America Unite i guess so, will the South americans end up building their own jet fighters i do not know but i know the KC-390 is a jet transport in the class of Hercules and basicly is a joint venture of South American countries.

For Argentina buying a few JF-17 only will help to keep more expensive the British presence, in fact like Fidel Castro said today England can not even afford to send carriers to patrol over there, but a few ships and a submarine.

But in my opinion Argentina will get those Islands due to politica pressure and diplomatic efforts, it might take 20 or 30 years but the British are a waning power and its colonial past is just fading away

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

There seem to be three options on the market of single engine fighters with affordable maintenance:
the Korean T-50
the Sino-Pakistani JF-17
the Indian Tejas

Click to expand...

I Think Argentina only has two options, buy Chinese or buy Russian,

Why? the US will always protect England, the 1982 defeat of Argentina was in Part a result of the willingness of the US to allow England to win, in fact the inter american treaty of defense was not respected by the US by allowing a foreign power (none American) to do war on a Latin american country.


This really annoyed many in Latin America (surprised the Argentina Junta after they helped the US in Central America) and has resulted in the fact many latin american countries today buy Russian or Chinese.

Venezuela for example bought Su-30s after the US refused to sell parts for the Venezuelan F-16s.
Bolivia and Peru also buy none american aircraft for the same reason

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

OT,
military, the UK doesn't need to station a carrier around the Falklands. The military of Argentina is not at the level of readiness or threat to demand such.
the Kirchner government has gone out of its way to limit the military of Argentina.
politically had Argentina not pressed the issue military by invading the Falklands, its highly possible that Argentina would have been given them under limited terms. By sending troops the Argentinians woke the specter of Winston Churchill from its sleep.
economically the British is faltering but not as bad as other EU nation states.

additionally, the chances of a unified Latin American nation are about as high as a unified pan pacific nation. Or a unified pan Asian nation. Low to null.

on topic

my bet is still for used Mirage. The Russian jets would cost more then the Kirchner government would be willing to spend, and the JF17 is still new and I don't think the Chinese government would approve a Technology exchange just yet. Nor do I think the Kirchner government is willing to make the technology investment.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

OT,


additionally, the chances of a unified Latin American nation are about as high as a unified pan pacific nation. Or a unified pan Asian nation. Low to null.

on topic

my bet is still for used Mirage. The Russian jets would cost more then the Kirchner government would be willing to spend, and the JF17 is still new and I don't think the Chinese government would approve a Technology exchange just yet. Nor do I think the Kirchner government is willing to make the technology investment.

Click to expand...

The unification of South America is on the way, i did not say Latin America since from Mexico to Panama the nations are well inserted in the US influence.

South america has started its Unification, it will take time, the unification is simply to have more leverage in terms of economic clout.

Why? simply because a larger economic area has more economic resources to finance projects like UNASUR`s primary trainer aircraft or Kc-390 jet transport.
see
[video=youtube;smT12DmBy58]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smT12DmBy58[/video]

read


LAAD: South American countries partner to develop new trainer
Print
By: STEPHEN TRIMBLE RIO DE JANEIRO 10:28 10 Apr 2013 Source:

Seven South American countries have pledged to develop and fly a new basic trainer by 2015 to replace ageing fleets of aircraft such as the Brazilian Neiva T-25 Universal.

The agreement was announced on 9 April by the defence ministers of Argentina and Brazil, and also includes participation from Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Uruguay and Venezuela.

The project, named Unasur 1 - an adaptation of the acronym for the Union of South American Nations - was unveiled with a long list of specifications, but few details about who will be responsible for designing and building the aircraft.




June 18, 2013
Argentina’s state-owned aircraft manufacturer Fabrica Argentina de Aviones (FAdeA) is giving its Pampa jet trainer a new lease on life in a bid to export it internationally.

The first IA-63 Pampa III will be rolled out in October and fly in December and is due to join the ranks of the Argentine air force in 2014. The new aircraft follows on from the 2008 Pampa II, which was re-engined with Honeywell’s TFE731-40 turbofan. The Pampa III features a new glass cockpit developed by Elbit; three large displays allow the aircraft to simulate the radar and data-link systems of modern combat aircraft. The avionics are linked to a lightweight helmet and integrated sighting system.

In a briefing at the Paris Air Show on June 17, FAdeA president Raúl Argañaraz said that the program was giving new life to the company’s factory in Cordoba.

“We had stopped work for 14 years,” says Argañaraz, “Now, we are resuscitating the plant that was the pride of our country for many years.”

The first batch of 18 Pampa IIIs will be used as training aircraft; in 2014–17, work will begin on the production of a new light attack version of the aircraft involving the building of 22 aircraft.

Argañaraz told journalists that he believed there was potential for international sales of up to 100 aircraft in the coming years. The company is already working in conjunction with German general aviation manufacturer Grob to provide both the Pampa and the Grob G 120TP turboprop trainer with an integrated training system for small air arms. The scheme was launched at the FIDAE aerospace and defense show in Santiago, Chile, last year.

Other companies involved in the program include UTC Aerospace Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries, Liebherr, Rockwell Collins and Safran.

The company is also the lead on a new joint South American turboprop trainer program called Unasur I. The aircraft is named after the Union of South American Nations, within which the aircraft will be developed and produced. Argañaraz says that while the joint approach is not like “Airbus or Eurofighter,” he is hopeful it will lead to further aerospace developments in the future. The aircraft, which is based on FAdeA’s planned IA-73 turboprop trainer, apparently meets 90% of the joint requirements set out by the 12-nation consortium. The aircraft will be used for basic and primary training and will be built and certified in Argentina because, according to FAdeA officials, the country has some of the strictest military certification rules in Latin America. A prototype is due to fly in 2014.


Argentina bans British made ejection seats from local jet trainer IA-63 Pampa III
Argentine jet trainer manufacturer FAdeA has been banned from installing a British made ejection seat in a new version of the Pampa by the government of President Cristina Fernandez, according to company boss Raul Arganaraz.
The FAdeA president told reporters during a briefing at the Paris Air show Monday that the ban on the Martin-Baker ejection seat had been imposed by the government to “guarantee autonomy” of the new IA-63 Pampa III trainer/light attack aircraft.
Instead, the Argentine aircraft maker will turn to a Russian ejection-seat to supply the Pampa IIIs for the Argentine Air Force.
Argentina fought a war with the British in the early 1980s over sovereignty of the Falkland Islands and recently the two nations have been at diplomatic loggerheads over the issue with the Argentine president again raising the temperature over the South Atlantic islands.



[video=youtube;RoxYqdQat-w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoxYqdQat-w[/video]

However at this moment there is not a joint military program for a fighter and Argentina needs to finance its own jet fighter fleet, so as Brazil they are studing the best option and it seems they are studing JF-17

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

The unification of South America is on the way, i did not say Latin America since from Mexico to Panama the nations are well inserted in the US influence.

South america has started its Unification, it will take time, the unification is simply to have more leverage in terms of economic clout.

Click to expand...

Sorry Mig-29, I can see a group of South American nations working together on technical issues for their militaries and perhaps even alliances between several of them.

But a unification of South America? Really, you honestly think so?

I do not.

No way do I see Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, Venezuela, Uruguya, Paraguay, and Columbia setting aside their differences, let alone their national identities, to unite into a single nation, or even something like the European Union.

Short of some kind of world-wide compelling reason...life or death, survival of the species type thing...like an alien invasion, I just do not see that happening in my or your life time, or that of our great grandkids.

But that's just my opinion.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Jeff Head said:

Sorry Mig-29, I can see a group of South American nations working together on technical issues for their militaries and perhaps even alliances between several of them.

But a unification of South America? Really, you honestly think so?

I do not.

No way do I see Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, Venezuela, Uruguya, Paraguay, and Columbia setting aside their differences, let alone their national identities, to unite into a single nation, or even something like the European Union.

Short of some kind of world-wide compelling reason...life or death, survival of the species type thing...like an alien invasion, I just do not see that happening in my or your life time, or that of our great grandkids.

But that's just my opinion.

Click to expand...

Well opinions are valid and i do respect yours.

However in my opinion they will do it, plus the economic and political structures are been established by the south Americans, and they want to do it.

UNASUR and Mercorsur are examples.

The KC-390 and IA-73 UNASUR 1 are two examples, however you have to read about it specially in Spanish speaking sources.

Mexico my nation of course not it is already in the NAFTA area, the fact we even are building AH-64 fuselages and we are designing jet engines even some with military applications for US and European firms is an example of how Mexico is part of NAFTA.

However South America has a glue, it is called the need for a larger market to get more advantages in investments, the protection of a internal market for Argentina and Brazil and in general for all the leftist governments of South America.

Brazil is basicly the main glue since they need a market for their growing economy that is very well seen in Mercosur.

Any way only time will tell but but the odds are now is they will do it just read what is UNASUR and what they are thinking about military issues and why UNASUR 1 exists, why they will make a common turboprop trainer and why Argentina leads the project and Brazil leads KC-390.

But the process is just in its beginning and might take 20 to 30 years to be finished

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Mig although there may be a movement to try and unify or even ally, the nations of south America are not any where near the level of stability seen in the formation of the EU there are dozens of territorial disputes particularly around Venezuela. Political disputes past crimes resource issues.
unless a major game changer takes place I don't see it. What seems more likely to me is bipolar regional powers. Venezuela forming one pole Brazil the other. The two then pulling the nations around them into alliances.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

unless a major game changer takes place I don't see it. What seems more likely to me is bipolar regional powers. Venezuela forming one pole Brazil the other. The two then pulling the nations around them into alliances.

Click to expand...

Actually 3 if you include Mexico trying to pull in all the Central American nations into its orbit as well.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Mig although there may be a movement to try and unify or even ally, the nations of south America are not any where near the level of stability seen in the formation of the EU there are dozens of territorial disputes particularly around Venezuela. Political disputes past crimes resource issues.
unless a major game changer takes place I don't see it. What seems more likely to me is bipolar regional powers. Venezuela forming one pole Brazil the other. The two then pulling the nations around them into alliances.

Click to expand...

here is the UNASUR 1

Terrain the process of integration has already started. the South American nations already have their own school to train the UNASUR military

if you read this it says


f) Promover el intercambio y la cooperación en el ámbito de la industria de defensa.

g) Fomentar el intercambio en materia de formación y capacitación militar, facilitar procesos de entrenamiento entre las Fuerzas Armadas y promover la cooperación académica de los centros de estudio de defensa.

f) To promote exchange and cooperation in the field of the defense industry.

g) Promote the exchange on military education and training, facilitating training processes between the armed forces and promote academic cooperation of defense research centers.
read link






However Argentina at the moment has no ability of making and designing a F-16 class aircraft, so at this moment Argentina might want the JF-17 to get some tech transfers to later use the knowledge in future UNASUR programs

[video=youtube;QyLRD8QZ21g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyLRD8QZ21g[/video]

If you can understand spoanish they talk about unasur 1 and the critizise Lockheed Martin when they owned Fadea