Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

True, but what's going to stop the British from drilling for those resources on what they considered is their land? Now both sides can work out a deal where they can share revenues from those resources through diplomatic channels. I can see that as a likely scenario meanwhile the two sides can still debate about ownership of the Falkland Islands/Malvinas, or IMO split the ownership in half. The Argentine can get the entire west island meanwhile the British can have the east island.
To be honest i do not know.

The British will try to legalize the drilling in the eyes of Argentina`s neighbors Uruguay or Brazil, and have already send nuclear subs to threat Argentina.


Argentina`s policy have been just purely diplomatic, the possibility they have approached China for JF-17s is a possible sign they might be a little worried about their complete inadequacy in terms of military capabilities even to defend Argentina.

But i think they will choose to press England via Mercosur to embargo the Falklands/Malvinas and render the British efforts as very expensive, already in GDP the Falklands are very expensive to England and you can see it the per capita GDP of the Falklands is one of the highest in the world however they only raise sheep.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I think it will be a long time. The UK will hold on to the Falklands as long as possible, and it will be a long time before any aircraft that Argentina acquires can challenge the Typhoons there. I expect the UK will keep their specially upgraded River Patrol Boat there, and will periodically have an SSN in the area too.

All of that will have to end before there is any chance in getting those islands.

Argentina should just forget about those Islands as a reason for anything.

They should focus as you and Thunderchief have indicated in cementing the economic relationships, and in electing at least half-way honorable leaders who will focus on reviving Argentina's economy and industry and establishing the capability to acquire and maintain the aircraft, vessels, and systems necessary for Argentina's defense.

History and time will take care of the rest.

Well put Jeff. Argentina has long suffered the self-inflicted wound of political necrophilia, by indulging in Peronisum. It has gone for fascist right with Juan Peron to Fascist left with Cristina Kirchner.

It is time that we forget the islands and move on to tackle the real issues with the country. Specifically the leadership.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Well put Jeff. Argentina has long suffered the self-inflicted wound of political necrophilia, by indulging in Peronisum. It has gone for fascist right with Juan Peron to Fascist left with Cristina Kirchner.

It is time that we forget the islands and move on to tackle the real issues with the country. Specifically the leadership.
Mirage

in my opinion, which is not from an Argentine national, but from a fellow Latin American i think the Malvinas will not be forgotten by the Government of Argentina, since the oil and Antarctica are natural resources that belong to the Argentine territory, and giving up on them will only encourage other powers to trample on the rights of Argentine over your own natural resources is basically giving to British petroleum your oil.

So in my opinion strengthening your nation means also defend your natural resources, i do not think the purchase of jets by Argentina is for any other reason than update your old fleet, but i think diplomacy should continue to defend your natural resources from being plunder by a foreign power that stole the Malvinas and now will drill and stole your oil and perhaps later your fish and at the end the Antarctica.

However since i am not from Argentina i just opine, is up to you and your nation decide what to do about the issue.
Any way we or at least most of Latin America are with Argentina about the Malvinas
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Argentina has no ambitions to conquer new territories from its neighbors. Crazy Cristina is just rattling the sword to distract the populous. The real adversary is and will be Chile, and to a less extent UK, which are eyeing the Antarctic and the overlapping claims. As you may recall Chile assisted the English during the South Atlantic war in 1982. Additionally Chile has always coveted the territories of Tierra del Fuego and Patagonia.
It makes one feel like the Poles between the Russians and the Germans. So with a health dose of paranoia the FAA will need a strategy for defense and offense if its homeland/interests are threatened. Again this is not for a conquest of islands, or neighborly annexation.

I just don’t what this thread to deteriorate into a series of Malvinas/Falklands postings.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Mirage

in my opinion, which is not from an Argentine national, but from a fellow Latin American i think the Malvinas will not be forgotten by the Government of Argentina, since the oil and Antarctica are natural resources that belong to the Argentine territory, and giving up on them will only encourage other powers to trample on the rights of Argentine over your own natural resources is basically giving to British petroleum your oil.

So in my opinion strengthening your nation means also defend your natural resources, i do not think the purchase of jets by Argentina is for any other reason than update your old fleet, but i think diplomacy should continue to defend your natural resources from being plunder by a foreign power that stole the Malvinas and now will drill and stole your oil and perhaps later your fish and at the end the Antarctica.

However since i am not from Argentina i just opine, is up to you and your nation decide what to do about the issue.
Any way we or at least most of Latin America are with Argentina about the Malvinas


Thank you Mig. The islands will not be forgotten, but it is time to move on and fix the nation and provide for the national defense. Diplomacy is going to be the only way to continue if that is the will on the people and government
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Argentina has no ambitions to conquer new territories from its neighbors. Crazy Cristina is just rattling the sword to distract the populous. The real adversary is and will be Chile, and to a less extent UK, which are eyeing the Antarctic and the overlapping claims. As you may recall Chile assisted the English during the South Atlantic war in 1982. Additionally Chile has always coveted the territories of Tierra del Fuego and Patagonia.
It makes one feel like the Poles between the Russians and the Germans. So with a health dose of paranoia the FAA will need a strategy for defense and offense if its homeland/interests are threatened. Again this is not for a conquest of islands, or neighborly annexation.

I just don’t what this thread to deteriorate into a series of Malvinas/Falklands postings.
To be honest i do not understand why you think Chile is a threat.
Argentina can easily defeat Chile for several reasons in opinion.

First Chileans are not really a larger nation than Argentina and their military is barely a Match for Venezuela.

If Argentina buys a few F-16s, JF-17s or Su-30 easily can out maneuver the Chileans.
Second is History, Chile and Argentina are more or less the same nation and Chile is more or less isolated in the south american realm, Brazil is the big boy and i do not think they will abandon Argentina.
Why? since Argentina is in Mercosur Brazil wants allies like Argentina.

and Third Peru also protects the back of Argentina as they did in 1982.

So what is the best for your in aerospace?

In my Opinion, Argentina needs to solidify a common south american aerospace industry, C390 does it, since in my opinion the Embraer jet solidifies the UNASUR common military program.

Since Brazil has yet to develop military jets in the class of J-10, MiG-29 or Mirage 2000, the C-390 plays a real role since it is an off shot of the E-170 family and still it is supposed to gather Chile, Argentina and Colombia with Brazil to develop a jet with commercial goals an much advanced Emb-120 Brasilia analogue for the XXI century.

Will argentina build military jets? yes you do with Pampa IA-63 which is a jet trainer a bit old for this century but still an excellent start, your new Ia-73 (despite this is a turboprop) and the KC-390, so in my opinion the Embraer firm is pulling Argentina into a real competitive program.

JF-17 can only do it if you build parts for the jets as a provider otherwise you will lose money.
If you buy a few let us say 20 perhaps the jets are worthed.
But in my opinion Argentina should get into the F-X program with Brazil and get some jets if they go for Russian aircraft or just buy a few JF-17 if the Brazilians buy french or american since England still will veto sales to Argentina.

[video=youtube;rorscKHPQTE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rorscKHPQTE[/video]
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

To be honest i do not understand why you think Chile is a threat.
Argentina can easily defeat Chile for several reasons in opinion.

First Chileans are not really a larger nation than Argentina and their military is barely a Match for Venezuela.

If Argentina buys a few F-16s, JF-17s or Su-30 easily can out maneuver the Chileans.
Second is History, Chile and Argentina are more or less the same nation and Chile is more or less isolated in the south american realm, Brazil is the big boy and i do not think they will abandon Argentina.
Why? since Argentina is in Mercosur Brazil wants allies like Argentina.

and Third Peru also protects the back of Argentina as they did in 1982.

So what is the best for your in aerospace?

In my Opinion, Argentina needs to solidify a common south american aerospace industry, C390 does it, since in my opinion the Embraer jet solidifies the UNASUR common military program.

Since Brazil has yet to develop military jets in the class of J-10, MiG-29 or Mirage 2000, the C-390 plays a real role since it is an off shot of the E-170 family and still it is supposed to gather Chile, Argentina and Colombia with Brazil to develop a jet with commercial goals an much advanced Emb-120 Brasilia analogue for the XXI century.

Will argentina build military jets? yes you do with Pampa IA-63 which is a jet trainer a bit old for this century but still an excellent start, your new Ia-73 (despite this is a turboprop) and the KC-390, so in my opinion the Embraer firm is pulling Argentina into a real competitive program.

JF-17 can only do it if you build parts for the jets as a provider otherwise you will lose money.
If you buy a few let us say 20 perhaps the jets are worthed.
But in my opinion Argentina should get into the F-X program with Brazil and get some jets if they go for Russian aircraft or just buy a few JF-17 if the Brazilians buy french or american since England still will veto sales to Argentina.

[video=youtube;rorscKHPQTE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rorscKHPQTE[/video]

Thank you for the vote of confidence Mig. However, I do not trust the Chilean Government. They showed their true colours when they supported the English during the 1982 war and mentioned previously the Chilean and English claim over the Antarctic overlap those of Argentina.

Chile also has 48 nice F-16s plus an additional 12 being purchased from Holland. The 60 plus F-16s and no match for a handful of A-4AR and possibly so Mirage F-1.

Peru has always been a good ally of Argentina, but its squadron of Mig-29 and squadron of Mirage 2000 will not last long against so many F-16s in a war of attrition. Therefore the only option for either Argentina or Peru is a first strike scenario and hit the air force on the ground. However, Chile could also perform a similar first strike scenario and render both opposing air force useless.

You are correct in stating that Argentina needs to begin co producing and produce transport and civilian aircraft in order to have funds to spend on R&D. Just like Brasil is doing
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Thank you for the vote of confidence Mig. However, I do not trust the Chilean Government. They showed their true colours when they supported the English during the 1982 war and mentioned previously the Chilean and English claim over the Antarctic overlap those of Argentina.

Chile also has 48 nice F-16s plus an additional 12 being purchased from Holland. The 60 plus F-16s and no match for a handful of A-4AR and possibly so Mirage F-1.

Peru has always been a good ally of Argentina, but its squadron of Mig-29 and squadron of Mirage 2000 will not last long against so many F-16s in a war of attrition. Therefore the only option for either Argentina or Peru is a first strike scenario and hit the air force on the ground. However, Chile could also perform a similar first strike scenario and render both opposing air force useless.

You are correct in stating that Argentina needs to begin co producing and produce transport and civilian aircraft in order to have funds to spend on R&D. Just like Brasil is doing
Now i see.

Mirage, che, let me explain you my point.

As a Latin american i think we have been divided, in two main Areas, NAFTA and UNASUR.
Mexico is in North America as such i think even we are Latin american geopolitically we are north Americans.

In my opinion Chile and Argentina are UNASUR, in few words South America, part of a united South America.

While i agree, at this moment Chile has a better equipped air force, the likeliness they will used against Peru or Argentina is too small.
Brazil, in fact is not worried about its South American neighbors, why? because none has the real capability to defeat Brazil or make a long attrition war.

To start, our nations lack a defense industry to remain fighting many years, once we deplete the ammunition in one or two months we can not fight.

China can fight for years a conventional war since they can make from tanks to fighter aircraft, Russia, England the US can do the same even Japan or India can do it.
In South America only Brazil is close to do that but in very few areas, still an Embargo will limit Brazil.

So in any war between Latin american powers they are brief skirmishes lasting weeks or very few months.
Any Embargo to Chile will eliminate their military capability once their providers decide the war is over.
In the middle east this has been obvious.

Chile lacks the political support to bring most of South America against Argentina

So in my opinion a none South american threat is more of concern, you can see that Brazil is building a nuclear Submarine, in 1982, nuclear submarines were the reason the 25 de Mayo stayed in port, just consider that if the 25 de Mayo would have been able to operate, the British would had lost any superiority in the air even more it would had allowed Argentina to build air strips in the Malvinas and this would had allowed to keep the British aircraft away from the islands .

This is why China has aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines and why Brazil is building nuclear Submarines to protect the Sao Paulo their only aircraft carrier among other things.

If Argentina is really serious about defense you need tech transfers and programs that combine the budgets of South american nations.

Brazil is doing that perfectly, because that is the only way Embraer can build KC-390.


Argentina sooner or later will either buy Brazilian aircraft rather than just a few used fighters, is possible the JF-17 is a way of getting some tech transfers to use later as a bargain tool once Brazil has the ability of create fighter aircraft.

Is very likely in 2030 Brazil will be able to build jet engines for manned aircraft, and this will allow them to build a fighter like the J-10 or MiG-29.

Today Brazil builds jet engines just for UAVs or cruise missiles, but in a decade they could do it for light jet aircraft like their Phenom.
 
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MwRYum

Major
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Mirage

in my opinion, which is not from an Argentine national, but from a fellow Latin American i think the Malvinas will not be forgotten by the Government of Argentina, since the oil and Antarctica are natural resources that belong to the Argentine territory, and giving up on them will only encourage other powers to trample on the rights of Argentine over your own natural resources is basically giving to British petroleum your oil.

So in my opinion strengthening your nation means also defend your natural resources, i do not think the purchase of jets by Argentina is for any other reason than update your old fleet, but i think diplomacy should continue to defend your natural resources from being plunder by a foreign power that stole the Malvinas and now will drill and stole your oil and perhaps later your fish and at the end the Antarctica.

However since i am not from Argentina i just opine, is up to you and your nation decide what to do about the issue.
Any way we or at least most of Latin America are with Argentina about the Malvinas

Still, the Argentina has yet recover enough to put more money into its defense budget, right? If they can only afford to let the navy vessels rot away at pier, the Falklands will only remain a far away dream, just like the Chinese with the Diaoyu Islands, can only gripe about it but couldn't do anything solid to make Japan yield.

Unless...something like the "Call of Duty: Ghosts" came to reality and make the entire South America an unified , grade-one global superpower...

Just saying.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

There seem to be three options on the market of single engine fighters with affordable maintenance:
the Korean T-50
the Sino-Pakistani JF-17
the Indian Tejas
All are within the same price range. Two of them operate F404 engines (like the Gripen that is off limits).
That could mean that the Swedish version of the F404 could be installed instead.
Engines are the most important issue for operating these devices. The F04, especially the Swedish variant, would be great.
China is still struggling with engine endurance and Russian engines are getting better at not being fuel guzzlers.
The empty aircrafts are all within the same weight range. The airframe needs to be as well easy to maintain and trainers such as the T-50 and the JF-17 are well suited for that task. I do think highly of the simplicity achieved by the Tejas in that regard.
Avionics could be a seperate contract because these have to be different from the equipment of a trainer aircraft and must be interoperational with other Argentine equipment.

Argentina does have options to make own contributions in avionics and engines during the lifetime of these aircrafts.
An Argentine effort in engines and avionics might benefit from ongoing work in Korea and Indonesia to create indigenious fighters by making a contribution capable of operation with both the KF-X and the T-50 (engines for example).

South Korea is a regional and an emerging great power. It would not be a bad idea to be on their good side. Unlike a purchase of Chinese aircrafts, this would not be taken as a political statement of alliance, while unaffected from BAE repercussions on availability. On the long run the build up of a blue water navy offers more cooperation opportunities to get hands on kit from one source. This hardware would make it capable of confronting the UK in a conflict. (confrontation does not equal invasion of UK territory for annexiation) In case of both conflicts, with Chile and the UK, air- and seaspace will be affected and interoperationability between both will enhance capabilities.
China is an emerging superpower and already a great power. Together with Pakistan they created a trainer favoured by many forumites as choice in the contest. Its bonus is of being a cheap to afford aircraft capable of interoperating with the vast array of international weapon imports Pakistan fields, similar to Argentina. The avionics have already been weaponized.
The Tejas does face a number of problems as a development project of India. This provides insecurities to delivery.
 
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