Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

For a Country like Argentina which was operating ancient Mirage III/V, Nesters the JF-17 and surplus Mig-29 offer a decent and cheap upgrade. However the light fighter market is currently overcrowded and overpriced (20 million for a Kfir’s paid by Colombia) especially since it has been infiltrated by combat trainers. So apart from JF-17 you have

At the upper end single engine light fighters:
F-16 and Gripen NG

Mid segment
Tejas, AT-50, second hand Gripens, F-16MLU, Mirage-2000, Mig-29

Combat trainers
L-15, Yak-130, M-346, FTC-2000

So you have products of higher quality and products that are cheaper just a few million up and down. Some of them are mature and battle proven (F-16, Mirage 2000), others have a development and teething problems ahead of them and others offer advantages like training a generation of pilots while providing basic minimum combat capabilities.

Click to expand...

No Sir I have to disagree here almost 100%.

The only imaginary competitor of JF-17 would come from Russia if MIG made a single engine version of Mig-29.

But there is no such a thing.


I hate to repeat myself, but many long-answered & cleared questions pop up again, and again, as if this were the thread page No. 1.


1. Countries like Argentina will not be idiotic enough to buy a fighter from the UK I assume, because of land disputes? If the answer is no, then why the heck buy Mirage 2000, F-16, Gripen for ??? Argentina would better contact Pentagon or Downing St Number 10 directly for a price quotation and a guarantee note that they can fly as promised when in a war against (... ) . That would be faster and more direct, wouldn’t it?

If Argentina IS idiotic enough to buy such things, then she deserves 1982 and whatever that will come to her. Hey, one can't be the dumb and the winner at the same time, the world does't work like this. Personally, If I were you i wouldn't touch them even if they were GRATIS!


2. The most important point of many countries like Argentina that look for a fighter is : independence (embargo-free), from UK&US Co, of ALL fighter parts, by which I mean engine, missiles, electronics, radar = that is, when the big day comes, the beatitiful plane will be sure to be able to take off, use GPS navigation system, and missiles it fires do work according to the ads... So flying a plane with keyparts come from the US/UK or firing French-made missiles, is very embargo-free, isn't it?



3. Then they want a proper 4 gen fighter, not a trainer for God’s sake. So there is zero story there on YAK or the Korean trainer. BTW, does the Korean one use US engines and missiles? Why bother contact Korea if you can directly call Pentagon in this case? If you can call Pentagon you'd better ask for F-16 instead if I were you, so why other trainers after all? ...here we go again.

( what is AT-50, the Korean one?)

( Is Kfir a 4-gen fighter? where its engine, radar and missiles come from?)



4. What is Tejas? Has it flied already with weapons on for more than 2 hours, i mean continuously? Or you have to wait till 2035 AD or sth? Almost all Tejas parts (engines, electronics, radar, missiles, composites, key components) are imported from US, UK, Israel, France, Russia, Italy and whatsayyou – truly a product Made-by- the United Nation (except China), assembled by India. So you consider Tejas, are you serious?

Flying Tejas safely, for a battle not for an air show, would require such logistics that would bankrupt Argentina I’d say, you sure you want Tejas?

Honestly, let alone combat capabilities, just for the sake of basic personal safety reason I’d fly a proven 3rd gen Mig-21 or even a Mig-19 than some imaginary 3rd gen Tejas (still hasn’t passed any serious flying test yet as we speak after 30+ years of assembling efforts of Indian scientists, yay!) any day of a week.



5. These countries want it cheap, and cheaper, 0km if possible ( don’t tell me some 2nd hand out of the 80’s is better than 0km), with all 4 gen goodies - complete integration of modern weapons, electronics, radar, pods, etc., with abundant & cheap spare parts and continuous upgrade pipeline in the foreseeable future…



6. Possibility of ToT for the domestic industry.



Please tell me one 4 gen fighter that fits into all above 6 other than JF-17 ?

JF-17 is unique, for good or for bad. It has no competitor in its market niche.

Out of all fighters, the quality-price-embargo-free JF-17 is quite uniquely positioned to take Argentina into the modern era.

Its sale will not upset the UK either because it won't change the current statue quo.

Argentina should forget about buying a mystic super fighter to take on the UK. Take back the islands just like that. It's impossible in today's world order. All major powers are much inter-related than ever, and no one is going to sell you such a thing, perhaps except cash-hungry Ruskies who can just sell you ANYTHING if the price is right.

Argentina should take JF-17 asap and kick start its domestic aviation industry and economy.

The sooner Argentina realises it, the better.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

No Sir I have to disagree here almost 100%.

The only imaginary competitor of JF-17 would come from Russia if MIG made a single engine version of Mig-29.

But there is no such a thing.


I hate to repeat myself, but many long-answered & cleared questions pop up again, and again, as if this were the thread page No. 1.


1. Countries like Argentina will not be idiotic enough to buy a fighter from the UK I assume, because of land disputes? If the answer is no, then why the heck buy Mirage 2000, F-16, Gripen for ??? Argentina would better contact Pentagon or Downing St Number 10 directly for a price quotation and a guarantee note that they can fly as promised when in a war against (... ) . That would be faster and more direct, wouldn’t it?

If Argentina IS idiotic enough to buy such things, then she deserves 1982 and whatever that will come to her. Hey, one can't be the dumb and the winner at the same time, the world does't work like this. Personally, If I were you i wouldn't touch them even if they were GRATIS!


2. The most important point of many countries like Argentina that look for a fighter is : independence (embargo-free), from UK&US Co, of ALL fighter parts, by which I mean engine, missiles, electronics, radar = that is, when the big day comes, the beatitiful plane will be sure to be able to take off, use GPS navigation system, and missiles it fires do work according to the ads... So flying a plane with keyparts come from the US/UK or firing French-made missiles, is very embargo-free, isn't it?



3. Then they want a proper 4 gen fighter, not a trainer for God’s sake. So there is zero story there on YAK or the Korean trainer. BTW, does the Korean one use US engines and missiles? Why bother contact Korea if you can directly call Pentagon in this case? If you can call Pentagon you'd better ask for F-16 instead if I were you, so why other trainers after all? ...here we go again.

( what is AT-50, the Korean one?)

( Is Kfir a 4-gen fighter? where its engine, radar and missiles come from?)



4. What is Tejas? Has it flied already with weapons on for more than 2 hours, i mean continuously? Or you have to wait till 2035 AD or sth? Almost all Tejas parts (engines, electronics, radar, missiles, composites, key components) are imported from US, UK, Israel, France, Russia, Italy and whatsayyou – truly a product Made-by- the United Nation (except China), assembled by India. So you consider Tejas, are you serious?

Flying Tejas safely, for a battle not for an air show, would require such logistics that would bankrupt Argentina I’d say, you sure you want Tejas?

Honestly, let alone combat capabilities, just for the sake of basic personal safety reason I’d fly a proven 3rd gen Mig-21 or even a Mig-19 than some imaginary 3rd gen Tejas (still hasn’t passed any serious flying test yet as we speak after 30+ years of assembling efforts of Indian scientists, yay!) any day of a week.



5. These countries want it cheap, and cheaper, 0km if possible ( don’t tell me some 2nd hand out of the 80’s is better than 0km), with all 4 gen goodies - complete integration of modern weapons, electronics, radar, pods, etc., with abundant & cheap spare parts and continuous upgrade pipeline in the foreseeable future…



6. Possibility of ToT for the domestic industry.



Please tell me one 4 gen fighter that fits into all above 6 other than JF-17 ?

JF-17 is unique, for good or for bad. It has no competitor in its market niche.

Out of all fighters, the quality-price-embargo-free JF-17 is quite uniquely positioned to take Argentina into the modern era.

Its sale will not upset the UK either because it won't change the current statue quo.

Argentina should forget about buying a mystic super fighter to take on the UK. Take back the islands just like that. It's impossible in today's world order. All major powers are much inter-related than ever, and no one is going to sell you such a thing, perhaps except cash-hungry Ruskies who can just sell you ANYTHING if the price is right.

Argentina should take JF-17 asap and kick start its domestic aviation industry and economy.

The sooner Argentina realises it, the better.

Click to expand...

I think the issue here is that Argentina doesn't have money for military right now rather than not wanting JF-17. Which is completely reasonable when you have much graver need in the country to worry about. We are not talking about North Korea here.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

tphuang said:

I think the issue here is that Argentina doesn't have money for military right now rather than not wanting JF-17. Which is completely reasonable when you have much graver need in the country to worry about. We are not talking about North Korea here.

Click to expand...

Argentina does have the money, but it has not the will.

Argentina is a very special case in Latin america for 2 reason it has fought England Militarily and the IMF economically.
While Argentina is not a developed country is not a poorly developed one, it is ranked on the middle human development tier, ahead of nations like Brazil or Russia in fact it is ranked 45 of 185 nations.

However politically, there is still an anti-militaristic stand, buying weapons are not the main priority of the government since 1982.

First Christina`s policy, is a diplomatic one on the Falkland/Malvinas issue.
Second the IMF has criticized the GDP numbers of the current government.
So Christina`s policies as her predecessors since 1982, has been low priority to buy weapons since Argentina has lost its stand as one of the richest countries rank it had in the 1900s.
People in Argentina see lower standards of living compared to what Argentina used to have, several decades ago, so the government does not consider buying weapons as a priority since this policy is linked to the military dictatorships that brought down the economy.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

No Sir I have to disagree here almost 100%.


Please tell me one 4 gen fighter that fits into all above 6 other than JF-17 ?

JF-17 is unique, for good or for bad. It has no competitor in its market niche.

Out of all fighters, the quality-price-embargo-free JF-17 is quite uniquely positioned to take Argentina into the modern era.

Its sale will not upset the UK either because it won't change the current statue quo.

Argentina should forget about buying a mystic super fighter to take on the UK. Take back the islands just like that. It's impossible in today's world order. All major powers are much inter-related than ever, and no one is going to sell you such a thing, perhaps except cash-hungry Ruskies who can just sell you ANYTHING if the price is right.

Argentina should take JF-17 asap and kick start its domestic aviation industry and economy.

The sooner Argentina realises it, the better.

Click to expand...

Argentina is not a nation that lacks technology, the problem ins Argentina is they are located in South America, not Asia or middle east, buying weapons are not priority in South america.

To give you an example, Argentina has enough technology to develop a nuclear reactor (Carem), a jet aircraft (IA-63), Cicare Helicopters, Pauny Tractors, Radars by INVAP.

However economically Argentina is not what used to be, in 1900, Argentina was one of the best countries to live, it was like today is Australia.

Buying the JF-17 is an option, but to be honest not the only one, if Argentina and Brazil would pool an effort they could easily approach Russia and get either Su-35s or PAKFAs even local assembly.


Since the late 1990s, there is a policy in South america of diversifying partners, China is one of them, a none traditional one (previously Argentina was a British partner, to the degree Argentina used british weapons in the 1982 Malvinas/Falkland war against the British), Russia or Ukraine are others but this also includes India or South Africa.

However Argentina has not a policy of military over civilian priorities, i think they are interested in JF-17 and they might buy it, but they won`t rush, at least as long the policy is lead by civilians and not a military dictatorship and they are interested in a good tech transfer.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

Argentina is not a nation that lacks technology, the problem ins Argentina is they are located in South America, not Asia or middle east, buying weapons are not priority in South america.

To give you an example, Argentina has enough technology to develop a nuclear reactor (Carem), a jet aircraft (IA-63), Cicare Helicopters, Pauny Tractors, Radars by INVAP.

However economically Argentina is not what used to be, in 1900, Argentina was one of the best countries to live, it was like today is Australia.

Buying the JF-17 is an option, but to be honest not the only one, if Argentina and Brazil would pool an effort they could easily approach Russia and get either Su-35s or PAKFAs even local assembly.


Since the late 1990s, there is a policy in South america of diversifying partners, China is one of them, a none traditional one (previously Argentina was a British partner, to the degree Argentina used british weapons in the 1982 Malvinas/Falkland war against the British), Russia or Ukraine are others but this also includes India or South Africa.

However Argentina has not a policy of military over civilian priorities, i think they are interested in JF-17 and they might buy it, but they won`t rush, at least as long the policy is lead by civilians and not a military dictatorship and they are interested in a good tech transfer.

Click to expand...

Three myths here I don't agree either:




1. “Argentina was one of the best in 1900, therefore…”

In 1900, industrialisation was only at the starting phase on the world stage, e.g. entire East Asia was not even in it except Japan, and there was no int’l intellectual property rights back then. The Spanish and the Italian immigrants in Argentina could just pick what they like in the old continent and reproduce them in a vast new land packed with huge natural resources in relation to its tiny population. Then of course, Argentina should be one the wealthiest in the world at the time. It had no reason why not to be. That, however, is not a bragging right for its technological powess nor an excuse for today’s failure, even though I understand the drift. On the contrary, it even highlights more on today’s incompetence that even with such a strong first-mover advantage it's sadly still left far behind today.





2. “It’s all due to the politics… if Argentina has a more military-prone president, then many things will start to look rosy again…”

A bit resembles to what Indians used to say that “if Modi is the PM, then India would be world superpower in 2020”. Not quite. A single or a group of politicians can’t change everything. What Argentina suffers, I am afraid, is a collective failure of its average people (politicians included) being much less competitive on the world stage due to a combination of reasons: i. avg national IQ disadvantage compared to East Asia, North America and NW Europe. ii. huge loss of collective confidence after 1982 war – which could be argued again as a symbol of weak national identity and national intellectual will, because a strong country can loss wars from time to time, Imperial China did many times, Germany did, Japan did, yet they’ll be back up again, and again, when called upon. One can easily change the president, as this mid term election of Argentina has been doing, but one can’t easily change the national will & national overall capabilities – right there lies ARG's problem.





3. “ Argentina has relatively high HDI…and good technologies…but the government don’t invest in military but economy”


I don’t buy HDI BS, at least on a big chuck of how it's measured. By the newest HDI figure, China quite resembles Sub-Sahara Africa, probably far behind Morroco or Kenya, yay! Argentina’s HDI, however, is as high compared to China as day and night. There you should know all about HDI.
Just by 2009 PISA scores, the gold standard for gobal educators and govenments to roughly gauge the capabilities thus competitiveness of country’s incoming labour force in general, China’s Shanghai blew everyone out of the water with ease (and Shanghai's HDi is probably hilariously below Jordan or Colombia), while China’s average national estimation ( by the unpublished 12 provinces tested) could be well above OECD average, the level of France and USA, for a developing country with a fraction of $$$ resource input per head. Argentina’s PISA scores, however, was amongst the bottom few of the global list of participating countries, below the likes such as Indonesia and Tunisia. ()


I don’t mean to embarrass Argentina, don’t get me wrong, the point here is from WHERE that HDI number comes from, depend on WHAT those “good technologies such as nuclear reactor (Carem), a jet aircraft (IA-63), Cicare Helicopters, Radars by INVAP”be made ? With that level of PISA scores, i am sorry but it would be very hard for me to imagine. It is easy for a group of highly educated high IQ specialists to draw some advanced designs, but those are not called technological achievements, not yet. It is easier to design but it is much much harder to implement it to make it, because implementation requires not only mass resources including both natural and human at all related levels, but also general industrialisation level at all related fields of which Argentina doesn’t have either. Only after you implement them, then they’ll be called technological achievements.


So since Argentian save all the money that should have been put into military for the economy, one would expect its economy goes to the roof, right? So how’s it going along then?


It is precisely due to this fact that ARG doesn’t have mass resources(both economical and human) and proper industrialisation level, even though it hasn’t invested much in military for 30yrs but just economy, its economy and general industrialisation level are still quite problematic. Had Singapore or HK be transplanted into Argentina 30 years ago right after 1982, Argentina would have become regional economical and military superpower already by perhaps 2000.


This is therefore the main reason why ARG needs assistance from China, not only on military technologies like helicopter Z-11, warships? army vehicles? tanks?, artilleries? missiles?... but also on countless things on economical and technological fronts, on tech of how to build and monitor domestic trains and subways? electric city buses? tech on how to build a huge $4 billion dam? basic industrial machineries? most consumer electronics, TVs? computers? telecom equipments? smartphones? … the list could go on and on across board. But back to the topic at hand ---

-- that’s why “high HDI” is BS (btw, by training I am Phd in economics & finance, and I don't buy today's so-called "GDP per cap" of many countries, either), “having good tech” is not there as advertised really, “no money for military for 30yrs, but all on economy” is one of the most absurd excuses i've ever heard of.

-- that’s why ARG needs JF-17, which not only represents a mere warplane, but also, perhaps much more importantly, a whole resources, industrialisation process & efforts it will bring on board.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

Three myths here I don't agree either:




-- that’s why ARG needs JF-17, which not only represents a mere warplane, but also, perhaps much more importantly, a whole resources, industrialisation process & efforts it will bring on board.

Click to expand...

Look, your perspective is not only wrong but is not why Argentina or Brazil are approaching China.

Lula Da Silva as well the Argentine Government when the signed Mercosur, saw the only way to remain independent was to create their own economic sphere, this required get tech transfers fron non traditional allies.


Argentina was a Washington ally who felt betrayed during the Falkland war, Argentina knows it is a small nation only a mere 40 million people country, contrary to Brazil`s 200 or Mexico 115 Million, Argentina`s economy is not that large due to a small economy less than a trillion dollars.

However if you know the history of aviation in Argentina you will know that Argentina was one of the first nations to put a animal into space in 1969, in fact it was the fouth nation to have ever sent a monkey into space (watch video ) it developed one of the first jet aircraft in the world, the Pulqui Series, Argentina also had several fighters and bombers designed from the 1940s to the 1970s.

However after 1982, the Western powers were fearful Argentina could beat England (Argentina was very close to beat England in 1982) so England imposed an arms Embargo.

The FMI also has had problems with Argentina. Similar to what happened to Russia, Argentina had en economic and military blockade to limit Argentina`s growth.

Brazil saw Argentina`s problems became kind or their problems too, so by 2000, Brazil decided that the only way to develop a real industry was to do not depend upon a single provider. that is the reason you see Gripen, Sukhoi or Boeing trying to get the F-X contract and why Brazil and Argentina supported Chavez because Argentina and Brazil have decided that they only can become more or less independent if they work togather in the same way France and Germany work.


Now if you can understand spanish this video has the Z-11 and the Pampa IA-63, that is the factory, Argentina needs to re-start the production of aircraft, so Z-11 will create a product to sell, however FaDEa works also with Embraer.

So you have to understand Argentina is a regional power, has a well developed industry, however it needs to globalize and that means make new partners and new projects beyond their typical western partners that are unwilling to share too much due to the fear Argentina might re-take las Malvinas/Falklands,
[video=youtube;n780Jd5FtdA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n780Jd5FtdA[/video]

however you can see Cicare has built helicopters for export to Europe and Australia, however contrary to FaDEa is a private company and is the only company in Latin America to design Helicopters

[video=youtube;oNxVdeDAP00]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNxVdeDAP00[/video]

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

MiG-29 said:

Look, your perspective is not only wrong but is not why Argentina or Brazil are approaching China.

Lula Da Silva as well the Argentine Government when the signed Mercosur, saw the only way to remain independent was to create their own economic sphere, this required get tech transfers fron non traditional allies.


Argentina was a Washington ally who felt betrayed during the Falkland war, Argentina knows it is a small nation only a mere 40 million people country, contrary to Brazil`s 200 or Mexico 115 Million, Argentina`s economy is not that large due to a small economy less than a trillion dollars.

However if you know the history of aviation in Argentina you will know that Argentina was one of the first nations to put a animal into space in 1969, in fact it was the fouth nation to have ever sent a monkey into space (watch video

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) it developed one of the first jet aircraft in the world, the Pulqui Series, Argentina also had several fighters and bombers designed from the 1940s to the 1970s.

However after 1982, the Western powers were fearful Argentina could beat England (Argentina was very close to beat England in 1982) so England imposed an arms Embargo.

The FMI also has had problems with Argentina. Similar to what happened to Russia, Argentina had en economic and military blockade to limit Argentina`s growth.

Brazil saw Argentina`s problems became kind or their problems too, so by 2000, Brazil decided that the only way to develop a real industry was to do not depend upon a single provider. that is the reason you see Gripen, Sukhoi or Boeing trying to get the F-X contract and why Brazil and Argentina supported Chavez because Argentina and Brazil have decided that they only can become more or less independent if they work togather in the same way France and Germany work.


Now if you can understand spanish this video has the Z-11 and the Pampa IA-63, that is the factory, Argentina needs to re-start the production of aircraft, so Z-11 will create a product to sell, however FaDEa works also with Embraer.

So you have to understand Argentina is a regional power, has a well developed industry, however it needs to globalize and that means make new partners and new projects beyond their typical western partners that are unwilling to share too much due to the fear Argentina might re-take las Malvinas/Falklands,


however you can see Cicare has built helicopters for export to Europe and Australia, however contrary to FaDEa is a private company and is the only company in Latin America to design Helicopters

[video=youtube;oNxVdeDAP00]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNxVdeDAP00[/video]

Click to expand...

I see that you guys Victim Mentality runs deep.

Argentina’s earlier kickoff of aviation-related industry didn’t come from widespread indigenous efforts by and large, but mainly thanked to a group of immigrants of ex-Nazi German engineers and aviators, followed by some Lockheed Martin co-ops. While when these people were long gone (or in their 90s), so was ARG’s relatively advanced aviation industry at a time.

Sure, some degree of economic/military boycott adversely affected its development as well. But look at China, it still suffers from international boycott on all Western-made high tech as we speak, so what?


ARG is NOT a small country, but a huge country blessed with huge natural resources and arable land, in relation to South Korea which sits on a small peninsula deprived of natural resources with the similar population size. Then look at Taiwan, with half of ARG’s population on a rock not much bigger than Buenos Aires Metro. In the 1970s both Taiwan and South Korea were not much better than North Korea today, leagues behind Argentina on per cap income and per cap natural resources. Where do they stand technologically in 1990, 2000, and where do they stand now in 2013?


Yes, in 1982 ARG almost defeated Britain. But Britain was fighting 1000s miles away from its shores while ARG were at its doorstep. While ARG airforce was very brave deserving rounds of appaude, why the army became surrender monkeys? The event, however, didn't showcase that ARG was powerful, no, sorry but even if several battalions of half-equipped North Korean or Vietnamese rice farmers, let alone PLA, were in your army's position in 1982, they instead would have already WON the land war against the far weakened and isolated UK troopers most likely! They wouldn't have lost the island.


What's the difference? You didn't have a strong national will in 1982 and you still don't have it today reflected by keeping looking for excuses, nor tomorrow most likely judged by things go today. That's why you couldn't, can't and most likely will not defeat Britain on your own. So 1982 defeat was not an isolated accident for ARG. It was very natural and logical. Even ARG somehow magically won a battle by luck, the UK could have still taken it back and won the war in the longer run. The national will difference ensured such a result.



Let’s face it, there are no excuses really. When you loss, you lick your wounds, swallow your ego, start to learn from the basics, work hard, but really really hard, and try to be back up again. The current universal victim mentality of your people considering you are still amongst the best somehow due to that short flash of history more than half a century ago (mainly thanks the Nazi German engineers) while snobbishly making fun of “rice-eating, triangle straw hat-wearing slant-eye Chinitos” at every chance you could catch (even in 2008 Olympics Games) will not automatically create goodwill, nor will it somehow pop up your self-esteem or technological / intellectual supeority in comparison.



Argentina faces only 2 roads ahead to go up the ranks:


Road 1. Forget about Malvinas and start to recognise Falklands. By National Power(economical, technological, worldwide softpower influence) and National Will, Argentina can not take on Britain. You just forget it. Then you have a chance to make peace and start to co-operate with the UK, France and the US for your further economical and technological development. In this case, I would choose getting classic F-16 and TOT by all means if I were you.

Road 2. If you can’t get along with Anglo-Saxons-Franco alliance, then only Russia and China left who can assist you go further. In this case, you can hit your chest and claim Falklands in the diplomatic circle but in reality you can still forget it, at least for a very loooong time inthe forseeable future. Let’s be realistic here neither Russia nor China will start WW3 for you on these remote islands. As the remaining 2 out of 4 in the entire world (the other 2 being USA and the EU as a whole), both Russia and China have a complete industrial value chain capable of upgrading ARG’s in a truly independent manner, with China being 10X more attractive than Russia in most fields considering quality-price ratio and speed of advancement that ARG could possiblely get. Actually both Brazil and ARG realise it as well, unintentionally or not. That’s why China is the top trading partner of Brazil and the 2nd largest of ARG.. In this case JF-17 is the BEST and the ONLY option.


There is NO a 3rd way for ARG to industrialise. ARG alliance with Brazil will not beat Franco-Britain alliance by a long shot, forget about it. And the alliance will not magically create a 4 gen fighter on its own due to the lacking of a complete industrial value chain, so forget about it, too! Brazil’s PISA scores were merely a faint shade above ARG’s, stop deluging yourselves in unrealistic dreams. You need a third party competititve partner, being either American-Anglo-Franco alliance or the Chinese.


As for ARG's earlier aviation industry and that Cicare gyrocopter, bravo, all very impressive indeed. Now, take a look of one built by a Chinese peasant years ago in his backyard where he grew vegetables:

[video=youtube;KRo9UvzgJYM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRo9UvzgJYM[/video]

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

I see that you guys victim mentality runs deep.

Click to expand...

Your knowledge of Argentina aerospace is very limited, the aerospace in argentina
has at least 90 years here i will show you a few aircraft that i am sure you did not know
Here you can see a 1940s picture of some aircraft built in Argentina







here you can see a few a few rockets from the 1960s


Here is a list of aircraft Argentina built and designed
Ae.C.1 (1931)
Ae.C.2 (1932) y su derivado Ae.M.E.1 (1933)
Ae.T.1 (1933)
Ae.M.O.1 (1934) (más tarde Ae.M.Oe.1)
Ae.C.e (1934)
Ae.M.Oe.2 (1934)
Ae.C.3 (1934)
Ae.M.B.1 / Ae.M.B.2 Bombi (1935)
Ae. M.S.1 (1935)
Ae.C.3.G (1936)
Ae.C.4 (1936)
FMA 20 "El Boyero" (1940)
FMA 21 (1943)
I.Ae. 22 "DL" (1944)
I.Ae. 23 (1945)
I.Ae. 24 Calquín (1946)
I.Ae. 25 Mañque (1945)
I.Ae. 27 "Pulqui I" (1947)
I.Ae 28 Super Calquin
I.Ae. 30 Ñancú (1948)
I.Ae. 31 Colibrí (1947)
I.Ae. 32 Chingolo (1949)
I.Ae. 33 "Pulqui II" (1950)
I.Ae. 34 Clen Antú (1949)
I.Ae. 35 Huanquero (1953)
I.A. 36 Cóndor
I.Ae. 37 Interceptor (1954)
I.Ae. 38 Naranjero (1960)
I.Ae. 41 Urubú (1953)
I.Ae. 44 "DL" II
I.Ae. 45 Querandí (1957)
I.Ae. 46 Ranquel (1958)
I.Ae. Guaraní I (1961)
I.A. 50 "Guaraní II" (1966)
I.A. 51 Tehuelche (1963)
I.A. 53 (1966)
I.A. 58 "Pucará"
I.A. 63 "Pampa" (1988)
I.A. 66 "Pucara II"
I.A. 67 "Córdoba" (1980)
I.A. 68 ATL (1980-1985)
I.A. 70 "Vector" (1990)
SAIA 90
I.A. 73(en desarrollo)(fecha tentativa 2013)

Now if you are interested you can visit these pages and you will see Argentina has a long history of aviation








Now to understand why Brazil is the leading aerospace power and Argentina is not, you can see two main differences.

First Brazil is making a composite of aircraft (similar to airbus) and these are civil, they make money, Argentina built mostly military aircraft and most engines were british or french however Argentina even designed radial engines for some of their aircraft.



Argentina will develop links for sure but its real neighborhood is south America, so Brazil which is an aerospace power in fact the 3er largest aircraft maker in the civil sector, is a natural ally, as such they will work in tandem.
Of course alliances with China or Russia are okay since in the age of globalization that is okay however the benefits of military aircraft for the economy of Argentina are too small, JF-17 won`t benefit as much as a civil program like E-170 or ERJ-145.

For such a reason Argentina`s aerospace could not compete with Brazil, in Argentina the military jets became a burden while in Brazil Embraer grew thanks to the civil sector.

Why? simple argentina has a small military budget, even Brazil has a tiny one compared to other nations like Russia, France or England

An despite the advances in Helicopters by Cicare`s CH-12 or CH-14, market is always an issue, Z-11 will complement the development and knowledge they have but Z-11 very likely will give more knowledge and money than JF-17
[video=youtube;c84nfaOgj7E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84nfaOgj7E[/video]

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Cheapness is not the be-all requirement even if you’re a 3rd world country. It has to be safe and reliable as well. There would always be questions regarding the China/Pakistan JF-17 plane in terms of that. How about the quality of those Chinese weapons, radars and esp. the engines (switching out the RD-93 for the WS-13)? If we are look at just numbers and cheap operational costs that allow you to train more, then there are other options. You can have a few (one squadron) of 1st Tier aircraft and two or three squadrons of 2nd Tier aircraft.

The JF-17 has to compete with 2nd-hand planes as well. There are probable many be 3rd world countries (like Argentina) that will be weighing the pros and cons of buying a new design aircraft like the JF-17. Some would prefer getting 2nd-hand F-16s (i.e Chile) upgraded to block 50/52 at around $32M or so (Indonesia and Romania) or 2nd-hand French Mirages (Peru and Brazil leased 12 Mirage 2000 each) or even second hand F-5E (Brazil) or refurbished Kfirs (Colombia and Ecuador) than buy an “unknown-quantity” aircraft.

Well what about African countries? Uganda and Ethiopia have been buying Russian SU-30 mk2s and Su-27s.

Additionally, recently Russia has been upgrading SU-27s to be upgraded to KN standards for only $15M each (plus the cost of the aircraft). UAE is selling their Mirage 2000-9 for less than $30M US.

Between brand-new planes such as the FA-50s and Gripen’s (I agree with you on the second hand Gripens) and 2nd-hand proven planes such as F-16s, MiG-29M/M2 and Mirage-2000’s.

With the exception of Pakistan, and now Sir Lanka, I don't fore see large sales for JF-17. Maybe some African nation replacing its J-7’s/MiG-21’s. I just see inquiries and talks about negotiations.

Click to expand...

For training engines matter and for affordable numbers and training life cycle costs matter. I lack the data to comment on both.
Argentina has high mountains, long distances and a maritime security environment. The Gripen was developed by Sweden and Switzerland for this range of activities.
Some things emerge as beneficial from this set of demands such as a low maintenance engine, like the Volvo-Flygmotor RM12 on Gripen, a simplified derivate of the General Electric F404.
Taking it a step further, the HAL Tejas approach to reducing the number of parts of the airframe greatly simplifies logistics and thus costs due to complexity and limited availability by maintenance hours per flight hour. Numbers equal available numbers and a simplified airframe helps to have a higher availability.
These are two contributions of good ideas, but no suggestion that these two aircrafts are best suited.
Avionics might be a good case for Argentina to have indigenious developments in cooperation with other countries. This might be the biggest boon to a contract because avionics know-how translates into a dual use product for a highly qualified work force. Argentina needs such developments to reclaim their former economic position among the nations of the world.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

For training engines matter and for affordable numbers and training life cycle costs matter. I lack the data to comment on both.
Argentina has high mountains, long distances and a maritime security environment. The Gripen was developed by Sweden and Switzerland for this range of activities.
Some things emerge as beneficial from this set of demands such as a low maintenance engine, like the Volvo-Flygmotor RM12 on Gripen, a simplified derivate of the General Electric F404.
Taking it a step further, the HAL Tejas approach to reducing the number of parts of the airframe greatly simplifies logistics and thus costs due to complexity and limited availability by maintenance hours per flight hour. Numbers equal available numbers and a simplified airframe helps to have a higher availability.
These are two contributions of good ideas, but no suggestion that these two aircrafts are best suited.
Avionics might be a good case for Argentina to have indigenious developments in cooperation with other countries. This might be the biggest boon to a contract because avionics know-how translates into a dual use product for a highly qualified work force. Argentina needs such developments to reclaim their former economic position among the nations of the world.

Click to expand...

Kurt, I am in agreement with your current post and the previous, in which you stated that, the advantage with diminishing returns:

Numbers,
training,
tactics,
technology

I would be nice if the FAA could purchase and operate SU-27. However that is not the reality. The only option based on the list provided would be an economical aircraft to purchase and operate (lifecycle costs). This would then permit the FAA to have numbers and economic operation cost would therefore facilitate more training and cascade into tactics.

The Gripen is indeed a great choice, however the high acquisition cost and the part ownership of SAAB by BAE make the sale unlikely. The same can also be said for the Tejas with the F404 engine. The aircraft need to be a small aircraft, on other words a point defense aircraft with a light payload capacity, similar to an F-20, F-5E, Tejas, JF-17 or Gripen.

As you all have probable discovered that the equipment/material purchasing criteria for the Argentine armed forces has been dismal over the late two administrations. And will not get any better until the mind set of the government changes, and that will only come around after the current one leaves. The current administration has allocated $US350 million available for new aircraft purchase. The reality is that this number could easily be doubled if the will to improve the FAA existed.

What is truly sad is that this situation need not have happened the Mirage III/V type where originally intended to be retired and replaced in 2010. By that time a replacement aircraft is located and brought into service the A-4AR fleet will also need replacement and the Ministry will then need to replace two aircraft types.

It is always a pleasure to read your incite into these problems since you (and Mig-29) have a true understanding of Latin America and relations with Western and Eastern powers.