Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Another point from weapon perspective:


e.g. some border conflict with Chile breaks out, any GPS-guided bombs and missles of Chile will surely work. Can't say the same with those from Argentina though. IF for some reason the US chooses side and turns off your GPS service, whatever bombs or missles (being origins of South African, Israli or brazil, etc) you have will become rubbish instantly. So will be all those GPS-guided navigtion systems from warships...

In such a real war scenario, only Russian precision weapons (GLONASS guided - globally already operational) and Chinese precision weapons ( Beidou guided, currently operational in Asia only, but will cover the globe within 7 years) will work.

So JF-17 is probably also the only safe choice in a real world conflict if you don't wish to repeat 1982 French story.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

I am no military specialist, far from it actually, I am just a fan boy hence I have no clue whatsoever how much $ per hour flight time JF-17 requires. However, common sense seems to indicate that if ARG airforce could not afford flying and maintaining JF-17, it then could not afford flying and maintaining most, if not all, other 4th gen fighters, doesn't it?.

Click to expand...

Compared to the maintenance nightmare of the Mirage III, V and Neshers. Argentina can easily afford the maintenance of the JF-17.

Speeder said:

Another thing, you're wrong that JF-17 has no int'l sale. From China's angle, PAK was actually JF-17's first internatinal client.

Click to expand...

I meant another foreign customer other than Pakistan and China, which developed the aircraft.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Compared to the maintenance nightmare of the Mirage III, V and Neshers. Argentina can easily afford the maintenance of the JF-17.

Click to expand...

That's right. Indeed ARG can have plenty of cost saving in the end on top of that.

Miragedriver said:

I meant another foreign customer other than Pakistan and China, which developed the aircraft.

Click to expand...

Despite all the political correctness and much of PAK airforce pilots input, I think most people agree that JF-17 was tailor-made by Chengdu for Pakistan. So economically & nominally it's a joint project while technically it's about 1 way street. This in itself limits its potential clients just like not too many people being able to fit well into a tailor-made suit for another guy.

But that fact that not too many people can fit well into a tailor-made suit doesn't necessarily mean the tailor-made suit is rubbish. On the contrary, it could be extraodinarily good.

Don't think Chengdu has nothing to do but JF-17. In fact all its engineers are very busy at J-10A, J-10B, J-20(and varients), and wahtever other secret project/s, apart from going to PAK helping out the local engineers to get up the speed on the PAK assembly line...(PAK assemby facility probably can not satisfy pakistan's own production need currently let alone exporting). So Chengdu is extremely busy. I doubt therefore it wants wholeheartedly to market JF-17, even though they wish, simply because of the full schedule they have. Even if ARG places an order tomorrow for TOT of a JF-17 assembly line in Buenos Aires, I very much doubt that Chengdu have enough man-hours to carry it out right away with ease.


That said, 3 more conditions further limit sales on the potential clients part:

1/ has small budget (so e.g. can not afford heavy fighters...)
2/ non-US/French buyers for whatever reasons
3/ has burning need to go into 4th gen

Most budget-tight countries are not restricted by either 2/ or 3/ or both, so countless 2nd hand cheap F16s, Migs, and Mirages and J-7 in the market could satisfy them well. (e.g. a J-7 or a mig19 is sufficient enough for the need of most African countries)

Very, very few countries can fit into these 3 conditions actually to start with, maybe a couple of in the ME (the region has been delayed by the Arab Spring in the recent years.) and some in South America.

On the other hand, even if jf-17 sold to many countries doesn't conclusively prove that this "tailor-made suit" is fantastic either. It all depends on what each needs. I beleive that it suits ARG's current situation extremely well. With an extra refueling probe, and a better radar perhaps, it were as if tailor-made for ARG.

So, without further int'l client so far apart from PAK is not a valid argument against JF-17 as much as the argument against Rafale, which has 0 int'l client so far (the Indians haven't decided yet)even worse than JF-17.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

That's right. Indeed ARG can have plenty of cost saving in the end on top of that.
Despite all the political correctness and much of PAK airforce pilots input, I think most people agree that JF-17 was tailor-made by Chengdu for Pakistan. So economically & nominally it's a joint project while technically it's about 1 way street. This in itself limits its potential clients just like not too many people being able to fit well into a tailor-made suit for another guy.

But that fact that not too many people can fit well into a tailor-made suit doesn't necessarily mean the tailor-made suit is rubbish. On the contrary, it could be extraodinarily good.

Click to expand...

There must be a disconnect in our communications. By stating that the JF-17 has not been purchased by other nations (with the exception of the two originators (Pakistan and China). Does not mean that it is an inferior aircraft. Very much like the example that was provided with the Rafale. The statement just indicates that there are no foriehgn sales. Therefore as stated in post 436 above “Chinese would undoubtedly offer very acceptable terms to stimulate some interest in this aircraft; as well as expanding China’s South American influence.”

Additionally the JF-17 (as with most modern aircraft) could be modified (electronically) to fit the needs of the FAA. This does not need to be done now. It could be done at one of the overhauls.

Many be China could also sell Argentina 18 FTC-2000G to act as an interim until the JF-17s go online. These aircraft could later be used as advanced trainers and/or aggressor units.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

There must be a disconnect in our communications. By stating that the JF-17 has not been purchased by other nations (with the exception of the two originators (Pakistan and China). Does not mean that it is an inferior aircraft. Very much like the example that was provided with the Rafale. The statement just indicates that there are no foriehgn sales. Therefore as stated in post 436 above “Chinese would undoubtedly offer very acceptable terms to stimulate some interest in this aircraft; as well as expanding China’s South American influence.”

Additionally the JF-17 (as with most modern aircraft) could be modified (electronically) to fit the needs of the FAA. This does not need to be done now. It could be done at one of the overhauls.

Many be China could also sell Argentina 18 FTC-2000G to act as an interim until the JF-17s go online. These aircraft could later be used as advanced trainers and/or aggressor units.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I was mistaken...but it seems to me that the problem boils down to Argentines complete rejection of made-in-china. So there's no easy and quick fix on the deep cultural thing... Is Zonamilitar a major ARG military forum, I suppose? A quick search leads to the following pages in recent days where you can see the overwelming opinions, including mods and most senior members, on JF-17 and J-10. I dunno whether to laugh or to cry

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

montyp165 said:

This is the very point that I myself was trying to get across, which is why I've said many times that if the JF-17 can satisfy Pakistani requirements it is more than adequate enough to fulfill Argentina's.

Click to expand...

These answers were posted in a roundabout way on post 397 paragraph 3, post 402 and post 436 paragraph 2

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

Perhaps I was mistaken...but it seems to me that the problem boils down to Argentines complete rejection of made-in-china. So there's no easy and quick fix on the deep cultural thing... Is Zonamilitar a major ARG military forum, I suppose? A quick search leads to the following pages in recent days where you can see the overwelming opinions, including mods and most senior members, on JF-17 and J-10. I dunno whether to laugh or to cry

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

No you are not mistaken. Zona Militar is for forum for adolescent fan boys and delusional adults that do not see the entire geopolitical picture. That is why I am a member of SInofenceforum, since it offers a more realistic presentation of facts and statistics.
If you are English I believe that the proper response would be to laugh. However in my situation it causes me great distress and sadness to see the garbage that passes for facts.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

So there's no easy and quick fix on the deep cultural thing...

Click to expand...

Additionally you have to remember that at one time Argentina was a major player in the world and enjoyed a very high standard of living compared to the rest of South America. Those days are now long gone. However the mindset still remains and is not easy to change.

The following is not meant to offend anyone, but ask yourself about the English, that once ruled over a vast empire and are now relegated to their own island, a few territories and the commonwealth. Things have changed for many countries, however the people’s attitudes do not changes, or if they do it takes a few generation. I know many Persians that still talk about the greatness of Persia and how they civilized the Arab nations. There are a myriad of examples, but I digress and have gotten off topic. Sorry

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Ok Miragedriver, I see your point.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

Ok Miragedriver, I see your point.

Click to expand...

Thank you for indulging in my rant, and speeking of the madam president being paranoid, .

Now that this bit of unpleasantness is over with, please let’s get back to the JF-17.