Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

numbers,
training,
tactics,
technology

Wasn't this the order of advantages with diminishing returns the further down on the list?

Numbers and traing seem best served with this craft.
Tactics is self evident.
Technology has been demonstrated by the US to be very much centered upon avionics.

Get an affordable craft into the air and do it often, in numbers and put good avionics on it.
The idea behind the Gripen is a showcase of that philosophy that can be copied with another aircraft.
Argentina's land uis large and has lots of coastline, ideally the aircraft is suited to operate in a maritime
environment and over long distances without much infrastructure.
Sweden is similar to Argentina in these aspects and tailor made the Gripen for these tasks. Another aircraft can become similar to this rtailor made solution. STOL, low and easy maintenance were some of the important requirements.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air...ghter-aircraft-thread-53-5634.html#post251267

News from Pakistan about the sale of 5 - 7 JF-17 jets to an undisclosed customer, with deliveries to take place next year. Chances are that it is Sri Lanka, but it could be some other country as well. The source is the Pakistan's Minister for defense production. So the news is pretty solid even though it has no details.

So now at least no one can say that JF-17 has no export orders. The current production at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is probably these aircraft. Argentinian friends can take heart at this vote of confidence.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Thank you for indulging in my rant, and speeking of the madam president being paranoid,

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.

Now that this bit of unpleasantness is over with, please let’s get back to the JF-17.

Click to expand...

At this point, what do you think Argentina's plan is with respect to JF-17?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

numbers,
training,
tactics,
technology

Wasn't this the order of advantages with diminishing returns the further down on the list?

Numbers and traing seem best served with this craft.
Tactics is self evident.
Technology has been demonstrated by the US to be very much centered upon avionics.

Get an affordable craft into the air and do it often, in numbers and put good avionics on it.
The idea behind the Gripen is a showcase of that philosophy that can be copied with another aircraft.
Argentina's land uis large and has lots of coastline, ideally the aircraft is suited to operate in a maritime
environment and over long distances without much infrastructure.
Sweden is similar to Argentina in these aspects and tailor made the Gripen for these tasks. Another aircraft can become similar to this rtailor made solution. STOL, low and easy maintenance were some of the important requirements.

Click to expand...

As always Kurt you are correct in you analysis, and to the point. If would be good for Argentina to have one type of combat aircraft that can fill the air superiority and strike roll. The simplification of maintenance and the ability to possible produce the aircraft in significant number would be interesting to see.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

tphuang said:

At this point, what do you think Argentina's plan is with respect to JF-17?

Click to expand...

In all honesty tphuang that is a difficult question to answer. With out getting political or preachy. The underlying problems fall on President Cristina’s hostile treatment of the private sector.

The mass exodus of capital, which has been limited only by leftist President Cristina capital controls, is threatening to undermine Latin America's No. 3 economy even further by leaving it short of hard currency and new jobs. Fernandez confiscated private pension funds to help pay government debts in 2008, and has nationalized some companies. Her government is widely accused of doctoring economic date, inflation runs at about 25 percent +/-, and foreign firms are forbidden from sending profits abroad. Even the Chinese have reduced their investments and will probable not enter into an agreement with the current administration, since they have consistently failed to follow through on any of their promises in the international and domestic community.

So to answer your original question: Not with this current administration. Sorry I don't want to get political, but that is the reaility

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Zahid said:

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air...ghter-aircraft-thread-53-5634.html#post251267

News from Pakistan about the sale of 5 - 7 JF-17 jets to an undisclosed customer, with deliveries to take place next year. Chances are that it is Sri Lanka, but it could be some other country as well. The source is the Pakistan's Minister for defense production. So the news is pretty solid even though it has no details.

So now at least no one can say that JF-17 has no export orders. The current production at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is probably these aircraft. Argentinian friends can take heart at this vote of confidence.

Click to expand...

And the answer is Sri lanka.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

The question becomes with the size, thrust to weight ratio being almost the same, the Korean FA-50 is roughly on the same price range as well (more for the FA-50).

Then there are relatively "newer" 2nd-hand planes such as UAE's Mirage 2k-9 planes reportedly being pitched at only around 25 million dollars each. Qatar is also actively selling their 12 Mirage 2000-5.

Granted that it maybe a good plane for the acquisition, and possibly the maintenance (although that remains to be determined). Also granted that a lot of 3rd world countries cannot afford 4++ gen air force. However, if what I read is correct (and please correct me if I'm not) the JF-17 Block 2 is roughly (or approaching) the cost of a the Mig-29M/M2

And the Mig-29M/M2 can outperform the JF-17 in a lot of categories, plus if you have the JF-17, the air frame is coming from Pakistan/China and the engine from Russia. I don’t know if the WS-13 engine will be operational in the Block 2 aircraft? The Mig-29 parts are coming from Russia and could also be obtained from India.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

For a Country like Argentina which was operating ancient Mirage III/V, Nesters the JF-17 and surplus Mig-29 offer a decent and cheap upgrade. However the light fighter market is currently overcrowded and overpriced (20 million for a Kfir’s paid by Colombia) especially since it has been infiltrated by combat trainers. So apart from JF-17 you have

At the upper end single engine light fighters:
F-16 and Gripen NG

Mid segment
Tejas, AT-50, second hand Gripens, F-16MLU, Mirage-2000, Mig-29

Combat trainers
L-15, Yak-130, M-346, FTC-2000

So you have products of higher quality and products that are cheaper just a few million up and down. Some of them are mature and battle proven (F-16, Mirage 2000), others have a development and teething problems ahead of them and others offer advantages like training a generation of pilots while providing basic minimum combat capabilities.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt said:

numbers,
training,
tactics,
technology

Wasn't this the order of advantages with diminishing returns the further down on the list?

Numbers and traing seem best served with this craft.
Tactics is self evident.
Technology has been demonstrated by the US to be very much centered upon avionics.

Get an affordable craft into the air and do it often, in numbers and put good avionics on it.
The idea behind the Gripen is a showcase of that philosophy that can be copied with another aircraft.
Argentina's land uis large and has lots of coastline, ideally the aircraft is suited to operate in a maritime
environment and over long distances without much infrastructure.

Sweden is similar to Argentina in these aspects and tailor made the Gripen for these tasks. Another aircraft can become similar to this rtailor made solution. STOL, low and easy maintenance were some of the important requirements.

Click to expand...

Cheapness is not the be-all requirement even if you’re a 3rd world country. It has to be safe and reliable as well. There would always be questions regarding the China/Pakistan JF-17 plane in terms of that. How about the quality of those Chinese weapons, radars and esp. the engines (switching out the RD-93 for the WS-13)? If we are look at just numbers and cheap operational costs that allow you to train more, then there are other options. You can have a few (one squadron) of 1st Tier aircraft and two or three squadrons of 2nd Tier aircraft.

The JF-17 has to compete with 2nd-hand planes as well. There are probable many be 3rd world countries (like Argentina) that will be weighing the pros and cons of buying a new design aircraft like the JF-17. Some would prefer getting 2nd-hand F-16s (i.e Chile) upgraded to block 50/52 at around $32M or so (Indonesia and Romania) or 2nd-hand French Mirages (Peru and Brazil leased 12 Mirage 2000 each) or even second hand F-5E (Brazil) or refurbished Kfirs (Colombia and Ecuador) than buy an “unknown-quantity” aircraft.

Well what about African countries? Uganda and Ethiopia have been buying Russian SU-30 mk2s and Su-27s.

Additionally, recently Russia has been upgrading SU-27s to be upgraded to KN standards for only $15M each (plus the cost of the aircraft). UAE is selling their Mirage 2000-9 for less than $30M US.

Between brand-new planes such as the FA-50s and Gripen’s (I agree with you on the second hand Gripens) and 2nd-hand proven planes such as F-16s, MiG-29M/M2 and Mirage-2000’s.

With the exception of Pakistan, and now Sir Lanka, I don't fore see large sales for JF-17. Maybe some African nation replacing its J-7’s/MiG-21’s. I just see inquiries and talks about negotiations.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

In all honesty tphuang that is a difficult question to answer. With out getting political or preachy. The underlying problems fall on President Cristina’s hostile treatment of the private sector.

The mass exodus of capital, which has been limited only by leftist President Cristina capital controls, is threatening to undermine Latin America's No. 3 economy even further by leaving it short of hard currency and new jobs. Fernandez confiscated private pension funds to help pay government debts in 2008, and has nationalized some companies. Her government is widely accused of doctoring economic date, inflation runs at about 25 percent +/-, and foreign firms are forbidden from sending profits abroad. Even the Chinese have reduced their investments and will probable not enter into an agreement with the current administration, since they have consistently failed to follow through on any of their promises in the international and domestic community.

So to answer your original question: Not with this current administration. Sorry I don't want to get political, but that is the reaility

Click to expand...

Mirage it is very funny how we differ in policies in latin america but more or less we get the same results.
In Mexico the private sector almost does not pay taxes, foreign companies basically do not give tech transfers, true in Mexico there is a big industrial base but is mostly foreign owned, however contrary to Argentina the money does not stay in Mexico and poverty remains at 50% levels and near 10% is malnourished.

So in Mexico we would say Christina protects Argentina.

In my opinion Argentina needs to do what Russia is doing creating your own economic area and protect it.

This means ask tech transfers, keep some money in Argentina and invest more in technology, this is only achieveable if you have a market a common South American market and a true Patria Grande.

If you get the JF-17 should be Like Lula da Silva said, get alliances but do not rely in any as a main source.
In few words do what the Brazilian are doing in F-X, getting subs from France and invitations from Russia to join PAKFA.